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 Post subject: BEC Chain/Belt drive
PostPosted: July 21, 2011, 10:35 pm 
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Joined: May 16, 2010, 10:42 pm
Posts: 5
Location: Wichita, KS
I really like a lot of things about Mikes build. Its light, and the motor will offset the driver's weight somewhat:
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=3628

But looking back to my FSAE days I remember driveline lash being really bad in first gear slow driving situations and really hate to think of that aggravated by having 100"+ of chain split between two chains. There are also maintenance issues with chain stretch and oiling. A chain can also do a lot of damage should it ever break, a longer chain has the potential to do more damage.

I've been kicking this idea around for a while, but I still have a few details to work out. A belt drive will have less driveline lash, almost no maintenance, and if it breaks it frays and the rubber crumbles into dust. Harley Davidson Motor Cycles has been using belt drives for 20+ years on their bikes. Used sprockets are available on ebay or craigslist for cheap, and several companies make custom made to order sprockets. After some research, I've found out its a 14mm step x 37mm wide Gates GT2 polychain belt. The part numbers are different for the for the harley's but I see no reason why I couldn't open an industrial parts catalog and order whatever length of belt I need. One downside is that even though I've found half price belts on ebay, I probably won't be so lucky to find the exact size should I ever break it. 520 O-ring chain isn't cheap either though.

Problems I've run into is the minimum bend radius on the belt won't allow you to use anything smaller than a 28 tooth front sprocket, and 72 is as big as I can find aftermarket for the wheel/drive side. 2.57 gear ratio isn't going to cut it for the autocrossing I would like to do with the car. Custom machining anything bigger wouldn't be locost and would be a pain to package as well as the tunnel would have to be very tall to fit it. Also a 28 tooth front sprocket is almost 5" OD and won't phyically fit my R1 motor even if the splines lined up nicely which they don't.

My solution, I'd run a splined jackshaft located in the tunnel with a Harley splined sprocket on both sides, one for an aftermarket chain coversion, and another stock front sprocket for a belt. This gives me a short chain from the motor to the jackshaft, allowing me to easily change gearing by swapping chain sprockets. Then a long belt can be ran from the jackshaft to a traditional style chain diff. Working out some common gearing, 17T on the R1, 24T on the harley (chain) front sprocket on the jackshaft connected to a 30T belt sprocket with a 70T belt sprocket on the diff works out to be 3.29 gear ratio.

What I still need to figure out is a way of cheaply of making the jackshaft. I have a small lathe and could machine away the splines from the front harley belt sprocket, make it an interference fit onto the jackshaft, and bolt it to any chain sprocket. What I would prefer is to find an junkyard axle, stub shaft, anything that matches the harley front sprocket spline. I think its 33 spline, but have no idea on the diameter, pressure angle, etc. Hopefully whatever I find is soft enough that I can cut it down to a smaller length, turn a smaller diameter on both sides to mount it in bearings, and thread it to hold the sprockets together.

Second problem is getting the rear sprocket to mount up to the Civic Diff I'd like to use after converting it to belt drive.

Other issues will be getting a design figured out so the belt can physically be removed once the car is together and still adjust tension on the belt and chain.

So, am I crazy or could this work? :mrgreen:

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1991 Miata daily driven STS car
1988 GTA LT1/T56 for trackdays and the occasional autocross


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 Post subject: Re: BEC Chain/Belt drive
PostPosted: July 21, 2011, 11:29 pm 
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Location: san francisco bay area
There's a belt drive conversion for a Yamaha VMax. ..

http://www.madmax.com/hot_products1.htm

Quote:
Mad Max Enterprises offers another exclusive feature for V-Max enthusiasts. The new "Mad Max belt-drive option will let you take advantage of the weight savings and power efficiency of chain-drive, with the added benefit of smooth, maintenance free riding. Not only is this system fully proven out and tested, it will give your V-Max a truly exclusive look.

Belt-Drive Conversion Package MBD001

Complete chrome-moly swing arm assembly
Custom heat treated out-put shaft
Reworked inner and outer bearing carriers
Custom oil seal and retainer
Custom machine work to cases
Billet drive pulleys
Drive belt
New chrome-moly cross member
Gas tank modification (customer supplied tank)
Custom belt guard


I've no idea what size their front pulley is but to install it you remove a 12% overdrive by taking out the middle gear assembly.
Harley also have smaller primary pulleys available, are you sure about the minimum tooth count being 28? 26 is standard on some models as I recall and 24's are/were available.
Gates has a newer belt material out (PolyChain GT Carbon) that's a lot stronger and can have drive center distance of over 7 feet http://www.gates.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=7468&location_id=11347
There's a "DesignIQ" link about 1/3 down on the right for their program to design your own belt drive (using their parts of course)

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For instance, a whole beer bottle isn't half the weapon that half a beer bottle is ..." Randall Garrett


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 Post subject: Re: BEC Chain/Belt drive
PostPosted: July 22, 2011, 3:08 am 
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When you replace a chain you remove the master link and thread it through the gaps but when you replace a belt you remove everything.

Belts are very common things in industry, many people don't realize just how common relating them only to vehicles.

Oh and your crazy but your Mum loves ya :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: BEC Chain/Belt drive
PostPosted: July 22, 2011, 1:59 pm 
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Joined: June 20, 2010, 6:14 pm
Posts: 94
Location: San Benito TX
You can keep pulley sizes down if you do the belt in 2 sections - you final drive ratio is about 3 to 1 so you could do a 2 to 1 and a 1.5 to 1.(or even 1.7 to 1 in both sections) You just have to make sure you have enough belt for the tension due to torque.


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 Post subject: Re: BEC Chain/Belt drive
PostPosted: July 22, 2011, 11:09 pm 
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Location: Waterloo, WI
Would it make any more sense to flip around your belt/chain configuration? Use a long belt drive to the jackshaft then use a short chain drive to the conventional chain diff. Tensioning both systems may be a trick regardless. The carbondrive belts, for instance, do not allow for any back bend and have to be treated relatively carefully (at least in the small, bicycle size ones I'm familiar with).

Incidently, Gates has a nifty app that you can use for their system that basically uses your smart phone as a tuner and will tell you if you have enough tension in your belt. Give it a pluck and if it hits the right note, you're golden. 8) Not sure if it works with anything other than their bicycle belt drive system.

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 Post subject: Re: BEC Chain/Belt drive
PostPosted: July 26, 2011, 10:05 pm 
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Joined: May 16, 2010, 10:42 pm
Posts: 5
Location: Wichita, KS
Acerguy wrote:
Would it make any more sense to flip around your belt/chain configuration? Use a long belt drive to the jackshaft then use a short chain drive to the conventional chain diff. Tensioning both systems may be a trick regardless. The carbondrive belts, for instance, do not allow for any back bend and have to be treated relatively carefully (at least in the small, bicycle size ones I'm familiar with).


Yep from what I've seen, you can't run a tensioning pulley on the belts since they're ribbed on the backside. Reversing it so the belt connects to the motor would make it much simplier to remove the belt since it would be in the tunnel entirely. Only problem is the custom pulley you'd need to match the motor splines would blow the budget even more. At least with a 2004 R1 a 28 tooth front sprocket is too large to fit next to the motor. I've seen the 26 tooth sprockets, haven't seen a 24. I'm hesitant to run a smaller tooth count pulley than gates will sell you, can't help but think it would kill the belts life. A 24 tooth 72 rear would get a desireable 3.0 ratio, just nowhere to go but down with it. The gates industrial pulleys are another opition, but they're going to be cast iron and super heavy.

I think I'm going to check the local junkyards for a rav4 diff and if it looks to be too heavy or the bolt on CV's won't bolt up to either style miata cv's than I'll probably try to flesh this out the rest of the way and run with it. If I can find a 3.27 traction lok 7.5 for cheap I may still go that route, but they're heavier than I'd like and still no easy way to adpapt it to miata uprights. Really like the idea of the freelander diff and I've found one locally, but having to pay ~$1k for a quaife at some point has turned me off of that idea.

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1991 Miata daily driven STS car
1988 GTA LT1/T56 for trackdays and the occasional autocross


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 Post subject: Re: BEC Chain/Belt drive
PostPosted: July 27, 2011, 10:30 am 
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Location: san francisco bay area
I suspect that the Gates catalogue only lists the sprockets commonly used in industry rather than the full rage of what the belt will fit. ..
The stock gearing on the Buell 1125R is 27/70 and Baker transmissions are available with a 26 tooth.
Take a look at sprocket sizes on the primary drives, you might find the numbers you want. I"ll look for the listing I had for a shop that makes custom sprockets with Kevlar (I think it was)teeth. .. They may be willing to share info thru email.

edit>> What about supercharger drive pulleys?
yet another edit>>driven pulley size can be pretty large, axle shaft centerline is usually somewhere around 6-8" above the lower frame rail. ..

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 Post subject: Re: BEC Chain/Belt drive
PostPosted: August 2, 2011, 6:57 pm 
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Joined: May 16, 2010, 10:42 pm
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Location: Wichita, KS
Good call on the buell, didn't think to check those. A little more selection, but I'm thinking I want to go with a smaller rear pulley to help with packaging. I'm guessing they probably use the same 1 1/8 HTD series as the XL/Sportsters, which doesn't look like is available from gates in the longer lengths.

Another option for some people may be the suzuki savage. Its uses the same spline/offset as a '80GS550 13 spline x 25mm, which is interchangeable on a lot of suzuki sportbikes. Gear ratio is a very manageable 2.95 so you could do a direct belt to the rear of the car. Uses a 14mm tooth, 40mm wide Bando brand belt that doesn't look to interchange with the gates stuff. I really like the idea of easily changable gear ratios with the jackshaft, but it would be hard to beat a direct drive belt setup, shame I didn't buy a GSXR1000...

http://www.bandousa.com/html/pdfs/bu-20 ... _trans.pdf

http://www.jtsprockets.com/61.0.html?&L ... =JTF513,13

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1991 Miata daily driven STS car
1988 GTA LT1/T56 for trackdays and the occasional autocross


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 Post subject: Re: BEC Chain/Belt drive
PostPosted: September 5, 2011, 7:38 pm 
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Location: Melbourne, Australia.
My experience with toothed belts has so far only been with supercharger drives, and they can be very vexatious things at high rpm...

I would certainly be concerned about minimum pulley tooth count, from the point of view of both belt life as well as jumping teeth under very high torque.
A bit of extra belt wrap is a wonderful thing.

I think the trick with chains is to massively over engineer them.
Use double or triple row chains and it will significantly reduce the stretch problem.
But the curse of dirt, rust, and lubrication will always make chains less desirable, unless they can be fully enclosed and splash lubricated.


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 Post subject: Re: BEC Chain/Belt drive
PostPosted: September 6, 2011, 7:21 am 
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I take it you want a traditional looking, front engine locost and your concerned about the parasitic loss of a bevel drive diff.

Use the largest drive sprocket that will clear the case. Use 530 sprockets so you can add a 530 compatible industrial #50 sprocket idler. Make the jackshaft adjustable for tighening the belt, then use a spring or fixed sprocket idler for the chain. Mount the #50 driven sprocket to the jackshaft with a QD bush weld flange, sd or larger based on desired ratio within the limits of chain speed and torque rating or the bushing. Since the drive pulley off the jackshaft will be larger, go with a heavier duty removable QD bushing, steeping up the shaft OD for necessary cross section with a full keyway. Then make the belt drive close to 1:1. I'd have to see the fwd diff to have an idea on mounting a driven pulley.

Check out Dodge and Martin for info on QD bushings. Mcmaster sells Martin brand.

Or, you could use a normal diff and a driveshaft. The shaft must have a sufficiently large OD to prevent whipping at high revs from the extra length that would normally be filled with a transmission.

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 Post subject: Re: BEC Chain/Belt drive
PostPosted: March 3, 2012, 12:14 am 
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Probably everyone's seen this, but check out http://www.dpcars.net

He's built several BEC with belts and chains. Mostly chains I think, but worth a look. AWD too!


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 Post subject: Re: BEC Chain/Belt drive
PostPosted: March 3, 2012, 12:07 pm 
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Location: san francisco bay area
oldejack wrote:
I"ll look for the listing I had for a shop that makes custom sprockets with Kevlar (I think it was)teeth. .. They may be willing to share info thru email.


I KNEW I had been forgetting something. ..
Anyways, here's the info on the guys that make Kevlar lined drive pulleys.
Haven't used one myself but more than one member of the iron butt tribe have recommended them to me.
http://www.supermax.net/Pages/home.asp
Attachment:
Overlay_2.jpg

Drive pulleys;
Quote:

PA-24
13.8mm 24 tooth engine pulley – 1 1/2". Will run up to 1 1/2" wide 13.8mm "Poly-Chain" © (normal kit uses 1 1/4" belt) for alternator motors. This pulley can be utilized on the factory drive that was offered as an after-market installation.

PG-24
13.8mm 24 tooth pulley as above except this pulley is for generator motors.

PA-24-S
13.8mm 24 tooth replacement pulley for factory installed belt drives that featured the 4 rubber bumpers as a compensator pulley. This pulley carries a .350 offset for use on the factory installed primary drive. 24 tooth 1 1/2" wide will utilize stock 78 tooth 1 1/8" wide Poly-Chain © belt. When installing this pulley you can use a 1 1/4" SuperMax belt for extra strength (offset charge).

PT-24
13.8mm 24 tooth same as PA and PG 24 except it has a tapered shaft. There are offsets available for use with later transmission shafts. (extra charge).

25-27 TOOTH 14 MM ENGINE PULLEY 1 1/2" WIDE
PS-25

PS-25A (for Alternator)
14mm 25 tooth for generator motors – 1 1/2".

Utilizes an 80 tooth 1 3/16", 1 1/4" or 1 1/2" wide belt, splined shaft, offsets available. (Please specify if being used on an alternator motor).

PT-25
14mm 25 tooth same as above except this pulley utilizes a tapered shaft center. Offset available for use when using later model transmissions with early tapered shaft engines.

PS-27
14mm 27 tooth engine pulley, 1 1/2" wide and has a splined shaft center. Can run up to 1 1/2" wide belts. (Please specify if running an alternator motor). Offsets available upon request, at an additional cost

PT-27
Same as PS 27 except utilizes a tapered shaft.

30 TOOTH 14MM 2 1/4" WIDE

PS-30
PREDATOR engine pulley. Comes with your choice of finishes on the flange. Available in show chrome, polished or spun aluminum. Splined shaft, uses a 2 1/4" wide 85 tooth "Poly-Chain ©". (Offsets available at an extra charge). Weighs 1/2 lb.

PT-30
Same as above except this pulley has a tapered shaft for 36-54 engines. (Offsets available at an extra charge).



Driven pulleys;
Quote:


A. Custom Pulley - To install any of the pulleys below on a factory installed belt drive 4 speed, a .062 in. spacer must be installed either in front of or behind the pulley, so the transmission pulley nut will tighten up. All pulleys described below are available in custom widths to fit your project bike.



Part Number
Description (These are 6 splined 5 speeds)

TP 28 4 A
Trans Pulley 28 tooth, 4 speed 1 1/2" (not recommended for high performance Big Twins)

TP 29 4 A
Trans Pulley 29 tooth, 4 speed 1 1/2" (not recommended for high performance Big Twins)

TP 31 4 A
Trans Pulley 31 tooth, 4 speed 1 1/2"

TP 32 4 A
Trans Pulley 32 tooth, 4 speed 1 1/2"

TP 33 4 A
Trans Pulley 33 tooth, 4 speed 1 1/2"

TP 34 4 A
Trans Pulley 34 tooth, 4 speed 1 1/2" (will not clear ratchet lid)

TP 35 4 A
Trans Pulley 35 tooth, 4 speed 1 1/2" (will not clear electricStart or ratchet lid)


B. Invalude - All splines on the Pulleys listed below are 33 invalude splines 1/2" thick and are 55 Rockwell. They fit from 1986 to 1993 factory 5 speeds. To install on 1994 through 2006, an early spacer and seal are required. Factory P/N OEM Seal 12050 and OEM Spacer-33334-85.

These Pulleys weigh between 2-1/2 to 3 pounds depending on the size and require no special locking devices etc. These pulleys do not squeal when wet and have phenomenal wear characteristics under sandy conditions. Far superior to any other pulley (especially aluminum). The OEM Pulleys weigh around 6 pounds and rip themselves apart due to inferior material (cast iron with a Rockwell hardness of only 30).





Part Number
Description

TP 31 5 B
Trans Pulley 31 Tooth, 5 speed 1 1/2"

TP 32 5 B
Trans Pulley 32 Tooth, 5 speed 1 1/2"

TP 33 5 B
Trans Pulley 33 Tooth, 5 speed 1 1/2"

TP 34 5 B
Trans Pulley 34 Tooth, 5 speed 1 1/2"

TP 35 5 B
Trans Pulley 35 Tooth, 5 speed 1 1/2" (will not clear electric start)


Special width narrower pulleys are available upon request (Extra charge).

C. Sputhe - These pulleys are available in a multitude of configurations. They have a 6 splined center and we make them in special offsets for the 5 speed in a 4 speed box, (the letter "S" has been added after the part number). We make them in 1-1 1/2" widths as well as narrower widths to fit different 5 speeds using the 6 splined output shafts. The 5 speed 6 splined looks like the 4 speed at first glance, however, the 5 speed shaft is larger than the 4 speed shaft. These are easily confused when a 4 speed is not nearby for comparison. We make narrow kits for the factory chain drive 5 speeds in the FLT and FXR models, that can be installed with minimal effort and no major modifications. When installing these narrower pulleys on these models the primary chain drive can be retained.



Part Number
Description

TP 28 4 C
4 Speed 1 1/2".

Same as below except 28 tooth (not recommended for large motors).

TP 29 4 C
4 Speed Big Twin (not recommended for large motors),

4 Speed 1 1/2" (Chain drive spline width), 29 tooth, 1 1/2" wide custom narrow widths

and offsets available (not recommended for large motors).

TP 31 4 C
4 Speed 1 1/2". 1 3/4 pounds.

Same as above except 32 tooth

TP 32 4 C
4 Speed 1 1/2". 1 3/4 pounds.

Same as above except 32 tooth

TP 33 4 C
4 Speed 1 1/2", 2 pounds

Ratchet lid drum must be clearanced.

Same as above except 33 tooth,

TP 34 4 C
4 Speed 1 1/2" 2 1/8 Pounds

Same as above except 34 tooth. Will not clear ratchet lid.

Will clear electricStart with minor clearancing.

TP 35 4 C
4 Speed 1 1/2" 2 1/4 Pounds

Will not clear electricStart.Same as above except 35 tooth.



Rear pulleys;
Quote:


Part Number
Description

RWP-5-68
68 Tooth, 14mm 1 1/2" wide, fits all 5 speed factory belt drives. Softails require clearancing of the top mounting bolt on the belt guard. Swing arms require no modifications. This Pulley is also utilized in many retrofit project installations as well. 5 speed wheel must be used. 68's are available in all styles.

RWP-4-68
Same as above except the 4 speed is offset .300" further outboard than the 5 speed. This Pulley may be used when wide tires are being installed on 5 speeds. This Pulley will adapt directly on all 4 speed factory installed final drives. No modifications required.

RWP-5-66
66 Tooth, 14mm Rear Pulley fits all softails from 1986 to 1989 with only a few minor steps. Some earlier softails will also accept this Pulley. You must be able to move your axle back 3/4" to adjust the belt. If you don't have the room, then a 128 tooth belt must be installed to accommodate the smaller Pulley. Will fit most 5 speed Swingarm Frames. This Pulley is available in all styles.

RWP-4-66
66 Tooth for 4 speeds require a longer than stock swing arm. Pauchco has these longer swing arms in stock, or one can be modified easily by almost any frame man. This Pulley may be utilized in many custom applications as well.

RWP-5-61
61 Tooth, 14mm, fits all 5 speed factory Big Twin final drives. This Pulley may be used to slow the engine dramatically. Under only a few cases can this Pulley be used. A large engine will pull this high ratio, for stock displacement engines this will be much too high when used with a 32 tooth Transmission Pulley. A belt change will also be required. "Softail" models require slight modifications to the top belt guard bolt. Outer flange designs are limited to plain, (chrome or un-chromed), floater, or chrome and slots. These Pulleys are also available in narrower than 1 1/2" widths. (Extra charge for custom widths)

RWP-4-61
61 Tooth, 14mm, Pulley will not fit on the 4 speed factory installed final drive as there are no belts available under 126 Tooth for this Pulley, however, many Sportsters use this Pulley. This Pulley is 1 1/2" wide and is available in narrower widths. (Extra charge for custom widths). Limited flange designs available as above.

RWP-5-58
58 Tooth rear wheel Pulleys are available in 1 1/2" wide, 14mm. Center distances should be discussed and what the resulting gear ratio depends upon what Transmission Pulley is to be used. This Pulley is used on many custom as well as early factory Rigid Frames. (Narrow Pulleys extra). Available designs include chrome, and slots, the "Wrath", round holes, and the Avenger. Flanges available include, plain or chrome slots. These Flanges are very narrow and there is limited room for design machining.

RWP-4-58
58 Tooth, 14mm, 1 1/2" same as above except this is for a 4 speed. This Pulley is utilized on many final drives. Factory Rigid Frames, FXR and FLT SuperMax conversions as well as 4 speed Sportsters. (Sporty uses 1 1/8" wide for use on factory installed rear drives). Designs available are the same as above (Narrowed Pulleys extra)


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"There are times when a broken tool is better than a sound one, or a twisted personality more useful than a whole one.
For instance, a whole beer bottle isn't half the weapon that half a beer bottle is ..." Randall Garrett


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 Post subject: Re: BEC Chain/Belt drive
PostPosted: March 3, 2012, 10:25 pm 
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Posts: 116
A shorter chain will wear faster. If it must be a belt/chain drive, and the driven sprocket chassis mounted, I think an enclosed chain with a slider-block adjuster will probably be your best bet. You could use a ratcheting or dampened slider, and change the oil once in awhile. Upsize the chain a step or two, and use a quality brand. If a timing chain lasts 100K+ this way, I think garage-engineering could pull off 10k, which wouldn't be bad. I've had a cheap chain last ~8k on my bike, and a quality chain last ~18k.

Chains only break when they are over-loaded or neglected.

Image

A seized roller, worn and cracked. It would have done the same to the pin. Check it once in awhile and you'll never have a break.


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