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 Post subject: Re: A locost EFI
PostPosted: April 21, 2015, 2:41 pm 
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The voice of reason
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Before you have a full board designed, is there an option to start with a bunch of small and ugly, but existing boards with a mesh of wires between them?


I will try to do this with the Freescale evaluation board and a Megasquirt expansion board that I have been loaned. I am not afraid of messy, does this look like a lab bench or a dinner table?


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 Post subject: Re: A locost EFI
PostPosted: April 21, 2015, 3:23 pm 
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I see some duct tape thus it's dinner table for sure :)

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 Post subject: Re: A locost EFI
PostPosted: April 21, 2015, 4:05 pm 
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That one scope trace that showed the starting voltage drop to near zero may have been misleading. Many cars switch off the accessory circuits, including headlights on some cars, while cranking. I suspect the cig. lighter (or whatever it was you found to probe) was one such circuit.

The spike down to 8 volts then rising looks typical. As I recall, 8 volts is the point that "CCA" or cold cranking amps is determined for rating a car battery, so it's not surprising that the drop wasn't lower. Starter motors are (or used to be) "series wound" type motors that produce their greatest torque and current draw at near zero RPM, then draw less as the load drops and the rpms go up. That is very much like the trace that drops to 8V and slowly rises.

John


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 Post subject: Re: A locost EFI
PostPosted: April 22, 2015, 12:24 pm 
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Hi John, I came to the same conclusion. I don't know what that power outlet is, but it's not just connected to the battery.

Russian2, you have a great site for your EFI project and I really appreciate your help with pointers. I followed a Google pointer to someone else's EFI site the other day and was appalled at how that person was treating people on his site. Just abusing them and acting like a child. I like the way you are working with little boards and connecting them together. I think in this project I will make use of the more modern and smart devices which will require robot assembly and reflow soldering. I will try to make the board useable for people that want to play or modify it. So you can look at it sometime soon before anything is built and see what you think. Perhaps by providing vias in a couple of rows one could solder in pins and break out the signals. I don't think the vias would add much cost.

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 Post subject: Re: A locost EFI
PostPosted: April 22, 2015, 1:27 pm 
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horizenjob wrote:
I am not afraid of messy, does this look like a lab bench or a dinner table?
Marcus, aren't you the guy that started the "Messy Garage" thread? Perhaps there is a pattern here... :mrgreen:

Looks like you've swapped your welding torch for a soldering iron. With all these electronic activities, are you still finding time to work on your Car9 build?

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 Post subject: Re: A locost EFI
PostPosted: April 22, 2015, 5:25 pm 
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seattletom wrote:
. . . Looks like you've swapped your welding torch for a soldering iron. . . .


I dunno, it looks like he may have sneaked away to Tallahassee and attended the J.D. Kemp School of Table Arranging. Somebody close by please check him for a tan! If he starts talkin' about red beans, rice and grits we'll know it's all over.

Cheers,

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

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 Post subject: Re: A locost EFI
PostPosted: April 22, 2015, 8:37 pm 
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just don't mention the goats

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 Post subject: Re: A locost EFI
PostPosted: April 23, 2015, 1:04 pm 
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With all these electronic activities, are you still finding time to work on your Car9 build?


It's caused a pause. We had snow in the yard up till last week and today it's in the 40's F in my garage. So I'm working hard on the injection to get it to a point where I feel like I can split my time more. Some of that is just what I can keep crammed in my head at one time. I'm learning a bunch of stuff for the injection. The electronics is not too hard to remember, but the stuff about the tools for drawing schematics, and board layout and suppliers and manuals is what I have to use for a few days to retain or make sense of.

I'll put an update in the build log on what I need to do next. One of them is to get my motor running so the injection stuff is not too far off track...

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 Post subject: Re: A locost EFI
PostPosted: April 27, 2015, 7:35 am 
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Lonnie-S wrote:
I dunno, it looks like he may have sneaked away to Tallahassee and attended the J.D. Kemp School of Table Arranging. Somebody close by please check him for a tan! If he starts talkin' about red beans, rice and grits we'll know it's all over.
Nope, not guilty, Yer Honor! He's still a pale white Yankee... I have tried to lure Marcus down this way but it hasn't worked. I tried seafood, smoked sausages, red-beans-n-rice, steak. Told him he could drive the Slotus and play with HamDip's new puppy. Not even with promises of illicit late-night unions with local female* goats. He's just that dedicated to his fuel injection project... It's touching, really... :mrgreen:

*We do have SOME standards around here. :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: A locost EFI
PostPosted: April 28, 2015, 12:14 am 
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Still slaving away here. I was making great progress and then got into some details on picking exact capcitors and wires and enclosures, OMG.

I'd like to hear about what you folks want for features. I'll try to come up with a list of things for you guys to pick from.

The software I'm using to design the board can generate pictures of it, so I should be able to show something very soon.

All this work has me feeling a little silly though. So here's some random thoughts.

Can I talk team Slotus into giving this thing a try if I arrange for it glow purple? It might be hard to see in the daylight, but if you sneak out to the garage at night - it should be glowing purple. :)

How's this for a marketing idea - if you put it in test mode and set it for 8000 RPM, I think you could weld with it using the coildrivers on a coathanger. So you could actually repair your rally car in the woods. This should do 80 amps at 12 volts.

I do want to at least offer the option of having the coil drivers in the box, because coils without ignitors are much cheaper. I think I may be having an issue finding connectors though. The wire that goes from the ignitor or coil driver to the coil has about 400 volt spikes on it though. The connectors I am looking at are rated for 14V but are tested to 1000V. They are pretty clear about this, but it's not obvious to me what that means. I think it means I would need better connectors.

I think that means I need to sell a separate box with the coildrivers which has wires coming out for the coils ( no connector here ) and a bundle coming out with a connector to the ECU. If you have coils with ignitors then you don't need this box.

How do people feel about a box that doesn't have a connectors on it, just a pigtail wiring harness and supplies to make high quality splices. Like shrink tubing with adhesive on the inside. I'm just surprised at the cost of the connectors. The connectors cost more than a chip with 20 million transistors on it...

:BH:

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 Post subject: Re: A locost EFI
PostPosted: April 28, 2015, 8:09 am 
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Connectors in small quantities are prohibitively expensive. It makes life nearly impossible for the small manufacturer. I for one am not opposed to making my own splices. That's what I did in radically modifying the wiring harness for the R1 project.

A separate box for coil drivers would allow some builders to "grow" their system. Take me for example. I'd LOVE to ditch the SU carb(s) for the Mini project and put on an injector rack from a bike or snowmobile as a first stage. During this stage I'd still use the crappy little Brit distributor with an electronic spark kit inside.

Stage two for me would be eliminate the distributor and go to a 36-1 wheel with pickup and 2 channel (wasted spark) ignition. I could add on your driver box and put on a pair or bike coils or go a step further to coil on plug.

:lurking: Watching with interest

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 Post subject: Re: A locost EFI
PostPosted: April 28, 2015, 10:20 am 
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Can I talk team Slotus into giving this thing a try if I arrange for it glow purple? It might be hard to see in the daylight, but if you sneak out to the garage at night - it should be glowing purple. :)
Abso-F'ing-Lute-Lee!!! Bring it down, we'll give it a test run! Would that ignition coil/welder thang make enough sparks to cook hot dogs???

Seriously, Marcus, I'd give a prototype a test, if you wanted me to. Team Slotus would be proud to show off your work!

:cheers:
JDK

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"Gonzo and friends: Last night must have been quite a night. Camelot moments, mechanical marvels, Rustoleum launches, flying squirrels, fru-fru tea cuppers, V8 envy, Ensure catch cans -- and it wasn't even a full moon." -- SeattleTom


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 Post subject: Re: A locost EFI
PostPosted: April 28, 2015, 4:11 pm 
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Would that ignition coil/welder thang make enough sparks to cook hot dogs???


I'll have to get one of my kids to measure the resistance of a hot dog. We'll let you know! :rofl:

Glad you're willing. I didn't really think it thru before I made the offer, I was just excited about the purple lights. We're using the same motor though so you are an ideal candidate! Let's spend some time thinking thru the issues, I need some feedback on what makes sense to you. I need to figure out if I can get the connectors to fit your harness etc. and how to do that. Also something to mount a sensor for the crank. I'm not sure we can use the distributor. I'm going to start looking at my motor...

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 Post subject: Re: A locost EFI
PostPosted: April 28, 2015, 10:40 pm 
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Yo Marcus-
A quick scan of Rock Auto, looking at the 5.0 version of a 1998 Ford Explorer showed me these components-http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=972248&cc=1304435&jnid=497&jpid=4
I chose '98 randomly, 96 to 2K is supposed to be the same way. That's the "Cam position sensor" I was talking about. They call it a "Cam Syncronizer" or some such, but it replaces the distributor and talks to the PCM. They're 30 to 100 bucks, but some of the listings don't have the actual sensor, which fits on top like the distributor cap, but only has one three-prong connector instead of 8 plug wires. (I think it's 3 prong...)

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=442782&cc=1304435&jnid=496&jpid=2
This is a "Crank Position Sensor" which I'd assume is just a Hall effect gizmo. No sign of the trigger wheel, but it's gotta be there somewhere. I'll look some more... Might not need one right off...

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=941367&cc=1304435&jnid=565&jpid=6
Coil pack for the wasted spark system that goes with the above setup. They go for 30 to 60 bucks from Rock, two for the V8 engine.

So, for about a 150 or maybe 200 bucks, I could have all the electronic stuff from Ford to run the distributor-less system. Cheaper than that iffen I send Bubba to Pick-N-Pull and tell him to walk out with a Cam Syncronizer hid in his pants. Of course, I'd need your 'puter to control all of it... Seems easy... I'm sure it ain't, but it seems that way... :mrgreen:

:cheers:
JDK

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"Gonzo and friends: Last night must have been quite a night. Camelot moments, mechanical marvels, Rustoleum launches, flying squirrels, fru-fru tea cuppers, V8 envy, Ensure catch cans -- and it wasn't even a full moon." -- SeattleTom


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 Post subject: Re: A locost EFI
PostPosted: April 29, 2015, 1:22 am 
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Thanks JD! I did some looking around and it appears the cam syncronizer just has one tooth and what it does is let the ECU know when the compression stroke is compared to the exhaust stroke. So those motors should have a crank tooth wheel setup also. I didn't find pictures of it yet. That's good news because OEM parts for this makes things easier.

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