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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: January 17, 2012, 7:03 pm 
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JustDreamin wrote:
I think my next step is to figure out if the F150 front diff is usable. Honestly, it'd be a good match to an Exploder rear (same basic parts). But I've got to be able to flip it to pass side drop (instead of drivers) and need to be able to run gears that give me the correct drive / coast sides and the correct rotation in the orientation I need. I've got a buddy who has a F150 of about the correct vintage (need to verify) and then ask him if I can lay under his truck with a tape measure.....

JustDreamin

Well, finally found an exploded view of the F150 front diff. It's set up with a High Pinion, with the Ring gear towards the right of the pinion, meaning that standard 8.8 gears won't work in that housing. It's true high pinion, with the offset up, instead of down like conventional gearsets. Confirmed by sales tech at Randy's Ring & Pinion.

So, guess I need to keep looking for an IFS type diff with low pinion, decent gears selection and size, light weight, and passenger side drop, and reverse cut and standard gears available.

Any further suggestions?

JustDreamin


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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: January 17, 2012, 8:53 pm 
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JustDreamin wrote:
JustDreamin wrote:
I think my next step is to figure out if the F150 front diff is usable. Honestly, it'd be a good match to an Exploder rear (same basic parts). But I've got to be able to flip it to pass side drop (instead of drivers) and need to be able to run gears that give me the correct drive / coast sides and the correct rotation in the orientation I need. I've got a buddy who has a F150 of about the correct vintage (need to verify) and then ask him if I can lay under his truck with a tape measure.....

JustDreamin

Well, finally found an exploded view of the F150 front diff. It's set up with a High Pinion, with the Ring gear towards the right of the pinion, meaning that standard 8.8 gears won't work in that housing. It's true high pinion, with the offset up, instead of down like conventional gearsets. Confirmed by sales tech at Randy's Ring & Pinion.

So, guess I need to keep looking for an IFS type diff with low pinion, decent gears selection and size, light weight, and passenger side drop, and reverse cut and standard gears available.

Any further suggestions?

JustDreamin


Yep that beast uses a "reverse cut" gear set. .....
I think, but have never tried( :!: ), that you can mod the late model GM IFS (88-2008 full size K series truck) and shorten the passenger side with a custom cover and stub axle replacing the electric disconnect portion to do what you want.
This might help you in your search (image #3) http://www.rsgear.com/articles/2008_10.pdf

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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: January 17, 2012, 9:58 pm 
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JustDreamin wrote:
Well, finally found an exploded view of the F150 front diff. It's set up with a High Pinion, with the Ring gear towards the right of the pinion, meaning that standard 8.8 gears won't work in that housing. It's true high pinion, with the offset up, instead of down like conventional gearsets. Confirmed by sales tech at Randy's Ring & Pinion.
JustDreamin

That might be a good solution if you were to run this layout:
cheapracer wrote:
I have mentioned a few times that one solution is to turn the V8 around, run a 4WD box forward and run a driveshaft back to a rear diff and forward to a front diff if you want 4WD, well here is one very successful lo(w)cost example ...

You could run the F150 front diff in the rear and flip it, now a low pinion diff and it would be running in the correct direction...right? Now if you could find a high pinion irs ford 8.8 you could run it in the front flipped...low pinion...right?

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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: January 17, 2012, 10:25 pm 
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oldejack wrote:
Yep that beast uses a "reverse cut" gear set. .....
I think, but have never tried( :!: ), that you can mod the late model GM IFS (88-2008 full size K series truck) and shorten the passenger side with a custom cover and stub axle replacing the electric disconnect portion to do what you want.
This might help you in your search (image #3) http://www.rsgear.com/articles/2008_10.pdf

Actually Jack, that does help. The GM IFS is in the same configuration as the F150 8.8 IFS setup, which is high pinion, ring gear to the passenger's side. It means that neither of those sets of parts (I think the 8.25, 7.25, and 9.25 are all variations on a theme) will work with what I wanted to do (flip it to get low pinion, and install normal gears to get drive on the drive side). Knowing what won't work (at least easily) is pretty useful.

I think the F150 gears (and the GM gears too) are High Pinion Reverse Cuts, not just reverse cuts. But I guess I need to do some more research.

I've thought about the whole shorten the diff, and those aren't good starting points because they end up being high pinion. I'd want to start with a low pinion setup. Maybe Dana 44 (it's available in std and reverse cut) but I'm not sure there's a reasonably light (and cheap) IFS or IRS housing (maybe Vette / Jag parts). I'll keep digging.

JustDreamin


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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: January 17, 2012, 10:37 pm 
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phongshader wrote:
JustDreamin wrote:
Well, finally found an exploded view of the F150 front diff. It's set up with a High Pinion, with the Ring gear towards the right of the pinion, meaning that standard 8.8 gears won't work in that housing. It's true high pinion, with the offset up, instead of down like conventional gearsets. Confirmed by sales tech at Randy's Ring & Pinion.
JustDreamin

That might be a good solution if you were to run this layout:
cheapracer wrote:
I have mentioned a few times that one solution is to turn the V8 around, run a 4WD box forward and run a driveshaft back to a rear diff and forward to a front diff if you want 4WD, well here is one very successful lo(w)cost example ...

You could run the F150 front diff in the rear and flip it, now a low pinion diff and it would be running in the correct direction...right? Now if you could find a high pinion irs ford 8.8 you could run it in the front flipped...low pinion...right?


I've thought about that configuration (and like the idea of rear engined, maybe something CanAm shaped), and the problem I run in to is the Tcase. I don't want to run a 4wd box (front and rear shafts are mechanically locked at identical speeds or 2wd to the wrong end). I want an AWD box (some form of differential in the tcase, preferably splitting power with a rear bias). For example, the BW 4472 tcase. In it's normal configuration, it splits power 35 % F / 65% R (through a viscous coupling controlled planetary gearset). Obviously that power split is not fixed (depends upon slippage etc) but the bias is to the rear. Turn that box around, and suddenly I have 65% of the power going to the front end (which has alot less weight on it, since it's now in a lightweight rear engined car). Wouldn't be a good thing. And I've looked at how to re-engineer the tcase to get it flipped, and I'm not willing to go to that extreme (new case, extensive internals, etc). I don't know of another AWD tcase that gives me the correct bias front to rear.

For now, I'm going to work on the front engine concept, with probably a BW4472 rotated to put the front driveline on the passengers side (may ultimately need a new case to tuck things in tight). But putting the front driveline, steering, brakes, exhaust system, and my feet all in the same space just won't work. There just isn't enough real estate with out moving the engine 2' to the right (kinda like a reverse Nascar Super Modified). And I'm not going to build it Wrong Hand Drive either.

JustDreamin


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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: January 17, 2012, 10:41 pm 
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Isn't a Subaru front biased AWD that can be turned around and run rear engined? Of course then your rear engined....

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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: January 18, 2012, 1:16 am 
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I'm partial to the Dana 44 myself :mrgreen: Probably overkill, a 35 should be more than enough with a tire under 26" tall.
I see no reason why you couldn't cut one down so it took stub shafts or get a D44 out of the rear of a viper/C4/Jaguar.
The Jag option (which is low pinion btw) is probably the cheapest and if you swap out ALL of it you can run US spec guts so ratio options are great.
Left output becomes right output when moving it from back to front and you're all done, no need to run it upside down.
You end up loading the "coast" side of the gear though which is an, ummmmm, 20% (?) reduction in strength iirc. Someone will jump in with the right number I'm sure.
As far as the center diff, I hear ya.
I keep looking at the Honda CRV method and pondering, there must be something that will work if you make or mod the housing but it would only add the front axle to the mix not push all the power to it.

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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: January 30, 2012, 5:00 am 
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Another random interjection into the awd thread... The Polaris RZR is awd, not 4wd... Adapt a bike motor to the trans and poof! Or maybe not... I've seen bike motors swapped into side by sides enough to know its at least feasible. And the RZR awd kicks in when you need it, not full time...


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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: January 31, 2012, 7:34 am 
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mazda rx7
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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: January 31, 2012, 7:36 am 
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Why not use a hydraulic motor instead of driveshaft?
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3003264/2002-ford-explorer

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Last edited by frezi on January 31, 2012, 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: January 31, 2012, 7:40 am 
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What are the transfer case and front diff fro. In the pic with the rx7 motor... Those are only rear wheel drive...


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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: January 31, 2012, 8:01 am 
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not all was rwd.
Vipers wrote:
take a look CLOSELY at the picture...... notice """2""""" shifter levers...hhhmmmmm, iwhat could the other one be for????..... also note the protruding slab of aluminum that is barely noticable behind the oil filter.....thats where the d-shaft goes to.....

and this isnt a 4x4...so there probubly wouldnt be a giant transfer case...most awd cars have the transfer case built into the main transmission

at least do some reasearch before you post stupid ass comments! dank'u cum ugain

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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: January 31, 2012, 8:47 am 
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krepus wrote:
Another random interjection into the awd thread... The Polaris RZR is awd, not 4wd... Adapt a bike motor to the trans and poof! Or maybe not... I've seen bike motors swapped into side by sides enough to know its at least feasible. And the RZR awd kicks in when you need it, not full time...

For the last couple of years I have been trying off and on to find out more about the AWD systems used in these types of vehicles without much success. I can find vague descriptions, but I haven't had much luck Googling up the fine details. The larger quads like the RZR 4 passenger are dealing with BEC equivalent weights even when empty and when you include aftermarket mods, BEC levels of power. Is anyone aware of a good, condensed source of information on the drivelines in these types of vehicles?

Perhaps all the BEC AWD posts could be split off into a BEC AWD locost thread? That might help keep both threads more focused.

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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: January 31, 2012, 9:19 am 
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That's actually a pretty good idea... I might swing by a local shop and see if I can dig up more specific info...


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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: January 31, 2012, 4:26 pm 
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That photo is of one of rod millen's rally cars, 1st generation rx7... That was never available from a dealer, anywhere. That second stick is to lock in the transfer case, like a 4x4 truck... Interesting and all, but what parts were used? Being from NZ, was Rod's car right hand drive or left...? Here's the link where I found your photo...

http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=13623


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