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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:06 am 
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Yes diff flipping would be a requirement with most common diffs available (I'm not aware of all their rotation directions though), I honestly don't believe there would be any oil feed problems to the bearings with so much being thrown around and overfilling the diff is an easy option.


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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:00 pm 
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I worked it all out in a 3d program and the diffs still need to be flipped...too bad it looked like it might have worked...ah well. Here's a build up of a rock crawler using this engine layout http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406196
He's using flipped ford 9" diffs, much to big and heavy for anything I'd ever build but still cool to see the build up.


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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:09 am 
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phongshader wrote:
I worked it all out in a 3d program and the diffs still need to be flipped...too bad it looked like it might have worked...ah well.


I do not understand.

phongshader wrote:
Here's a build up of a rock crawler using this engine layout http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406196


That made my day, one of the best builds I've seen in years!


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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:44 pm 
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cheapracer wrote:
Yes diff flipping would be a requirement with most common diffs available (I'm not aware of all their rotation directions though), I honestly don't believe there would be any oil feed problems to the bearings with so much being thrown around and overfilling the diff is an easy option.


In street use it's usually not a big issue but in high load offroad or track use, well. .. Then it depends on the internal shape of the housing.
In a large percentage of what's available (such as a dana or iirc, a hitachi, my memory seems to be fading faster in the last few years) the ring gear slings oil onto the interior face of the diff case above the pinion bearing which has a cast pocket feeding a weep hole going to the outside (leading face in the oem driving direction) of the pinion bearing but behind the pinion seal.
The oil then dribbles through the bearing and back into the bottom of the diff, it doesn't take much having only rotational loads.
The problem with overfilling is windage losses.
Again, not usually a big deal but if you're looking for that last bit of available power the losses increase as the rotational speed increases. Even 70w is some pretty heavy stuff.
It's not that the "lube fog" from windage doesn't work, it's just that in high stress use the lifespan is greatly reduced because the front edge of the bearing gets almost none and then it's from creep not direct supply.

Rotational direction should be a piece of cake for someone with your already proven skills dude!
I'm a kinesthetic learner so I have to use my hands to get it but anyone that can build cars in a small shipping container is pretty darn good imhop.

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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:10 pm 
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cheapracer wrote:

I do not understand.



I set up a model with ring and pinion mockup and animated them with the rotation they would have then moved them around to there new respective positions to see if they would rotate in the correct direction without flipping them, they did not. The problem, or one of many, with flipping them is the input for the diff will now be on the high side of the diff creating drive shaft alignment issues, at least for a street/track car. In a rock crawler it's preferred as it gives more ground clearance but a problem if you want to keep ground clearance low or even reasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:47 pm 
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Alrighty....

So this is a topic that's near and dear to my desires, so I'm gonna post here. Especially since I'm nowhere near ready for a build log....

I'd like to build myself a little toy. I'm inspired by Rods LS1 beasty and JD's Mallock replica among other sources. It'll have to be V8 powered (probably a 400 SBC, since I've got one laying around) because it's the only motor that will make that glorious v8 noise, and that's a big part of the experience. So, no I4's, 5's, 6's, 10's, 12's or rotaries (they sound like mad bumblebees on steroids) for me. I'm sure it's not in the Lotus them, but it's what I want.

Anyway, when I start thinking about a vehicle that should weigh under 2000 lbs, with 400 easy HP and plenty more just a Summit catalog away (600+ wouldn't be that hard out of a NA 406 or 434 sbc or 408 / 427 LSx motor), traction is the biggest concern. Looking at Rods LS1 videos, 1st gear is completely useless if you add any throttle at all. I'd be 2nd isn't that much better, and 3rd and 4th might get a little exciting. Which leads me to I need to power both ends.

My basic plan was a SBC or LSx motor, a T56 6 speed (although, I'm not real sure I'd need that many gears), a transfer case (thinking BW 4472 or ????).

What I'm struggling with is axles. I was originally thinking of using the Exploder 8.8 IRS setup in the rear and a F150 8.8 IFS in the front. However, the F150 is set up for Drivers' side drop, with a high pinion. I'd really prefer a pass side setup with a low pinion. Not sure that I could flip and regear the F150 to run the correct way.


So, does anybody know of an IFS front axle with pass side drop and low pinion, with reasonable gear selection, and reasonable strength? I'm looking for suggestions.

JustDreamin


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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:20 pm 
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I don't think it's been said yet, but some dirtbikes now have AWD, by way of a hydraulic motor on the front and a pump on the engine. Maybe this can be scaled up for a locost?


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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:45 pm 
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Nissan Skyline GT-R comes to mind.

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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:53 am 
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firebat45 wrote:
I don't think it's been said yet, but some dirtbikes now have AWD, by way of a hydraulic motor on the front and a pump on the engine. Maybe this can be scaled up for a locost?


And which bikes have this? I've never heard of it, but then again I'm only let out of my cage for special occassions and to eat.

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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:45 am 
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Quote:
Nissan Skyline GT-R comes to mind.


Do you mean take these parts and put themin a "nromal" R-160 case from a Subaru ( I thought the Skyline has the diff in the engine sump... )?

Are Nissan 4x4 trucks high pinion?

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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:13 am 
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carguy123 wrote:
firebat45 wrote:
I don't think it's been said yet, but some dirtbikes now have AWD, by way of a hydraulic motor on the front and a pump on the engine. Maybe this can be scaled up for a locost?


And which bikes have this? I've never heard of it, but then again I'm only let out of my cage for special occassions and to eat.

There is a company called christini that makes 2 wheel drive conversions for dirt bikes. These are not a hydraulic system but a very ingenious mechanical system that is worth looking up.

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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:35 am 
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carguy123 wrote:

And which bikes have this? I've never heard of it, but then again I'm only let out of my cage for special occassions and to eat.


Yamaha 2-TRAC WR450 - drive kit by Ohlins

Rokon 2WD in production for 40 years!


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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:05 pm 
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horizenjob wrote:
Quote:
Nissan Skyline GT-R comes to mind.


Do you mean take these parts and put themin a "nromal" R-160 case from a Subaru ( I thought the Skyline has the diff in the engine sump... )?

Are Nissan 4x4 trucks high pinion?


I'm with you, I though the GTR front diff is part of the oilpan casting, making it hard to use. But, if it's just a matter of installing a gearset in a standard Subie housing, that might not be all that hard. Not sure how inexpensive those parts are or what ratios are available, but I'll do some digging.

I think my next step is to figure out if the F150 front diff is usable. Honestly, it'd be a good match to an Exploder rear (same basic parts). But I've got to be able to flip it to pass side drop (instead of drivers) and need to be able to run gears that give me the correct drive / coast sides and the correct rotation in the orientation I need. I've got a buddy who has a F150 of about the correct vintage (need to verify) and then ask him if I can lay under his truck with a tape measure.....

JustDreamin


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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:17 pm 
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On further consideration. ..
the R180 in the front of my last Nissan won't work, it was a Driver side drop with a long right side shaft and housing but, most of the R series (160/180/200/210) can be sourced with stub shafts on both sides and with a low pinion setup you are going to be running on the coast side of the gear anyways.
I don't think that maximum torque load capabilities of the smaller (160/180) diffs will be anywhere near the problem it is in the off road world primarily because you're not likely to be running 37" or larger tires.

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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:56 pm 
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No, definitely won't be anywhere near 37". More like 26". And it shouldn't see the kind of shock loads you often find off road. But it will be between a manual trans with plenty of V8 grunt and fairly sticky tires.

JustDreamin


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