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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:19 pm 
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Posts: 62
I am using the r32 gtr tranny mounted to an sr20 motor in my project(awd 37 ford) and the drive train it is very straight forward. The bellhousing comes off the gtr tranny and is swapped out with one from a 91+ 300zx and then I am just using a tranny adapter from mazworx.com to attach to the SR. For the front diff I just got the RB26 oil pan from a GTR and cut the diff out. There is plenty of room for the front drive shaft I just need to extend the stock piece. The front diff is a 4.11 gear ratio but can be changed using xterra gears. The GTR tranny and oil pans are throw away items in the US so you can usually get them quite cheap. https://www.dropbox.com/s/zy9en6pur6vpsi6/IMG-20120530-00319.jpg This seems to be the absolute cheapest route I can find to get a good powered motor with a manual AWD tranny.


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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:42 pm 
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Location: Park Hills, KY
Could you do us a wee favor and take some measurements and pics of the trans, the bellhousing on and off, input shaft length? I'd like to see how easily adapted this trans could be to other engines... Which side is the starter on? Can you also get dimensions on the front diff? We have a fellow on here that's working on a few modified frame designs that I'm positive would love the info...


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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:07 am 
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Location: san francisco bay area
Soooooooo... I was sitting here today and pondering that I had forgotten to give mattrogers a call (he's down in my neck of the woods for a wedding) and remembering the car that killed Pontiac :ack: (NO those two aren't related :rofl: ) when I remembered that the rear diff has not only a gerotor limited slip but also a gerotor engagement instead of a center diff.
So I'm wondering. .. how well would it work as a front diff?!?
You could run a PTO type transfer case such as a gear drive dana.
http://www.neilkline.com/Tech%20Tips/Versatrak.htm
Quote:
GM shows versatility with Versatrak


The rear-differential module contains a twin gerotor, which consists of two gerotor hydraulic fluid pumps, two seven-plate wet clutch packs, and five hydraulic pressure valves.
Click to enlarge

General Motors has developed an all-wheel-drive system that it claims is quiet, efficient, and effective in low-traction situations. Called Versatrak, its design is "so light and compact that it fits under a flat rear load door," said Anna Kretz, Vehicle Line Executive for GM's minivans and crossover vehicles. "This enables GM to make this system available in vehicles such as the Pontiac Aztec and Buick Rendezvous, as well as our trio of minivans." The GM minivans include the Pontiac Montana, Chevrolet Venture, and Oldsmobile Silhouette.

A team of engineers from GM and Austrian driveline specialist Steyr-Daimler-Puch Fahzeugtechnik developed originally for the Aztec the on-demand all-wheel-drive system, which uses front-wheel drive for ordinary road conditions and automatically adds rear-wheel drive as necessary while the vehicle is operated under slippery road conditions. This change in drive is done without perceptible influence on vehicle handling or driving comfort, according to GM, without buttons to press or levers to throw.

"Versatrak is a mechanical system that transfers torque directly when front-wheel slippage occurs and can direct as much as 44% of the engine's power to each rear wheel either individually or simultaneously as needed," said Charles Kingsley, Vehicle Chief Engineer for GM's crossover vehicles.


The short- and long-arm independent rear suspension of the Buick Rendezvous employs a rear crossmember, upper and lower control arms, and knuckle assemblies.

GM describes the Versatrak system as beginning with a power take-off (PTO) unit bolted to the right end of a vehicle's front-mounted transaxle, a propeller shaft from the PTO to a rear-differential module, and halfshafts from the rear-drive module to each rear wheel. An aluminum driveshaft links the PTO unit with the rear-drive module. Inside the rear module, sensors in the twin Geromatic gerotor pumps react to differences in the rotational speed of the front and rear wheels. The gerotor is a "non-conventional assembly," according to GM, of two gerotor hydraulic fluid pumps, two seven-plate wet clutch packs, and five hydraulic pressure valves. The twin gerotor is licensed from Santa Barbara, CA-based ASHA Technologies.

All power is directed to the front wheels as long as no speed difference is sensed. If one of the front wheels begins to slip, the rear-mounted gerotor units pressurize fluid to engage the clutches that redirect torque to one—or both—rear wheels, enabling the rear wheels to provide traction that allows the vehicle to keep moving forward despite muddy, snowy, or slippery road surfaces. Hydraulic pressure forces a disc-shaped piston to engage the seven-plate clutch and apply torque through the halfshaft to each rear wheel. If the rear wheel is also on a slick surface, it will match the speed of the front wheels, reducing hydraulic pressure and disengaging the halfshaft and wheel. Torque from the propeller shaft is then re-routed to the other rear wheel. The propeller shaft uses a rear sliding constant velocity joint, which allows the driveshaft to vary in length to compensate for rocking motions of the transverse engine and transaxle.

The PTO unit has a three-piece housing with a helical geartrain consisting of three helical gears and a 90° hypoid gearset. An input helical gear welded to the right side of the differential carrier transfers torque through the other two helical gears and a hypoid gearset that turns 90° to route the torque to the propeller shaft. Four stamped, steel stiffening braces secure the PTO to the transaxle case, engine block, and oil pan.


Sensors in the twin gerotor pumps react to differences in the rotational speed of the front and rear wheels.
Click to enlarge

According to GM, the system performs the functions of a four-wheel-drive system that has both center and rear differentials—performed by the twin gerotor—with limited slip capabilities. This feature enables performance equivalent to a four-wheel-drive vehicle with torque-sensing center (between the front and rear axles) and rear (between the rear wheels) differentials, which have been available generally on only luxury and high-performance cars with four-wheel drive. Some other on-demand four-wheel-drive systems allow one front and one rear wheel to slip since they have open differentials in both front and rear axles.

The Versatrak system is mechanically and functionally identical on all the vehicles. However, the torque tube bolted between the rear-drive module and the propeller shaft is about 102 mm (4 in) longer on the Rendezvous to accommodate its longer wheelbase. The minivans, with wheelbases of about 200 mm (8 in) more than the Rendezvous and 305 mm (12 in) more than the Aztec, use a longer driveshaft to accommodate the extra length.

- Jean L. Broge






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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:18 am 
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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:29 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:25 pm
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Location: Park Hills, KY
How about a little bit info...?


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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:11 pm 
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Sorry for O/T but what software did you use to smooth that video?

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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:03 pm 
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frezi wrote:
hi, my project, slow progress, but want say :)
using:
engine- opel 2.5 v6; gear box -ford mt75 4x4; front hubs- from 4x4 ford sierra;
suspension setup similar to nissan skyline (front shock absorber from honda civic)
body wider, dont like sit in small space :mrgreen:
ford sierra front diff
p.s. sorry for bad english



toylocost wrote:
Sorry for O/T but what software did you use to smooth that video?


in youtube video stabilization

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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:34 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:25 pm
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Location: Park Hills, KY
Ah... European parts...


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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:03 am 
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frezi wrote:
engine- opel 2.5 v6; gear box -ford mt75 4x4; front hubs- from 4x4 ford sierra;


frezi, great build and congratulations to what you have achieved.

But,

200+hp, heavy drivetrain and the stresses of AWD all through what appears to be a standard Locost chassis with barely a bit of extra bracing around the engine worries me a bit, hope you will actively intergrate your roll cage into the total sum of the chassis or seriously consider other extra bracing as required.

Some ideas for chassis improvement here ..
http://locost7.info/mirror/aussiemods.php


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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:58 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:46 pm
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Location: Europe
Thank :)
Chassis is not complete, for personal reasons had to be drive out garage ...
i put extra bracking, but will add more
Now chassis back to the garage- redesign the rear suspension, end front suspension, put more reinforcement. Now 200ft tube come to end :D
Not very heavy:
engine: 350 lbs
gearbox: 120 lbs
frond diff: ~37 lbs

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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:21 pm 
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in europe car mercedes benz w124 found nice awd system (4matic):
center diff are adjustable, have few position front rear distribution: 0/100 % ; 35/65% ; 50/50 %
ant rear diff slip can adjust from interior and have few position (
http://www.w-124.info/w124/ASD-ASR-4MATIC.pdf

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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:52 pm 
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Posts: 113
Location: Arizona
Very cool -- I didn't know AWD was possible in a Locost. I'm interested to see videos of it driving around :D

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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:19 pm 
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everything is possible 8)

this guy also making awd locost
http://www.super7thheaven.co.uk/

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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:24 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:34 am
Posts: 35
Location: Germany
little input:

Palatovs design may not be the cheapest, but has proven to work

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 Post subject: Re: AWD Locost?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:42 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 10:55 pm
Posts: 169
Location: canada
frezi wrote:
in europe car mercedes benz w124 found nice awd system (4matic):
center diff are adjustable, have few position front rear distribution: 0/100 % ; 35/65% ; 50/50 %
ant rear diff slip can adjust from interior and have few position (
http://www.w-124.info/w124/ASD-ASR-4MATIC.pdf


Yes, its a Steyr-Puch engineered system with about a 32 000 km lifespan. An absolute disaster for Mercedes. I was working for a MB dealer when the staff, to a man, convinced me I did NOT want one of those, as I'd previously thought.... ;)

AMC Eagle stuff (Np119/np129) is the same chains/transfercase as some of the sturdiest late 70's 4x4 transfer cases, used at a fraction of strength capacity and with a viscous coupler. As much as I like the T5, the AX15 (or a regeared Toyota version of) is the way to go. As a plus the AX15 is the trans that has such an incredible number of bellhousings that mate it to so many engines. If you are in North America, it's the way to go.


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