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Solid Front Axle - Anyone thought about using one?
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Author:  cheapracer [ July 2, 2010, 8:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Solid Front Axle - Anyone thought about using one?
olrowdy_01 wrote:
Anyone want to play with the same numbers with a 57" tread IFS considering body roll, bounce/rebound, camber change due to braking etc etc. None of those things directly affect a solid axle. I can look at my computer graphs but it's past my bedtime and the dog is cross eyed because he wants to go out.


Well hangon, whats your requirements - do you want slow speed corner, fast? Bumpy track or smooth? Do you want optimal braking or optimal cornering (you can't have both)? IFS can only be made to perform at it's best in a narrow window. Beams can offer flat footprint out of the box 95% of the time regardless of speed and conditions. I tell you what I would rather have in the wet too, any day.

Speaking of braking, nothing can outbrake a beam, theres is no camber change at all like a IFS must have.

I don't like to mention articles that I can't point too but a major US mag tested a beamed Hot Rod once and even with it's big V8 sitting up high it was high 0.8's in G's, they were impressed. That must have been 20 years ago, I doubt it's been done just the once.
Author:  cheapracer [ July 2, 2010, 9:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Solid Front Axle - Anyone thought about using one?
Driven5 wrote:
Caster is mostly useful at higher steering angles......

Which is precisely why I didn't bother bringing it up in the first place.


Actually caster is a wonderful tool for smaller steering angles and can become a pain at higher ones, too much camber can be worse than not enough if it takes the load off the outer tyre's shoulder.

You made a clear and firm statement that a beam couldn't corner without certain events happening and the undisputable fact is that caster can be used to counter those events and is done so by Speedway, FV and Karts just to name a few that use non cambering suspensions.

Anyway, I've proved enough with factual evidence, didn't even include that Guy in the 60's at Lime Rock blowing all the fancy Euro's and home built IFS away with his Offy Midget - back then tyres wouldn't stand for poor wheel control like a modern radial does and does with the pith poor designs getting around and I mean manufacturers.

FWIW, the greatest 2WD rally cars ever built and that went head to head against each other were the MK11 Escort and the FIAT 131 Abarth - the Abarth had IRS while the Escort had a huge live axle out of a Capri V6 complete with 4 links, panhard rod, vented discs and 4 calipers (a pair for the handbrake) that took 2 men to lift yet the Escort was always superior in loose, dirt and rough events because those 2 rear tyres were always flat on the ground to get traction - check history, it's all there.

Goodnight.
Author:  carguy123 [ July 2, 2010, 10:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Solid Front Axle - Anyone thought about using one?
cheapracer wrote:

Anyway, I've proved enough with factual evidence,



Ok now do it and show everyone up. We'll be watching. :twisted:
Author:  mr.peabody.d [ July 3, 2010, 11:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Solid Front Axle - Anyone thought about using one?
Image
Image
Found at...
http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/ ... 245/page1/
Since you are interested in giving up handling for the sake of a concept....you might as well gain something!

(250lbs+ and a bit more traction)
Author:  olrowdy_01 [ July 3, 2010, 2:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Solid Front Axle - Anyone thought about using one?
carguy123 wrote:
cheapracer wrote:
Anyway, I've proved enough with factual evidence,
Ok now do it and show everyone up. We'll be watching. :twisted:
People seem to forget that it was already done 50 years ago. I did it with my '40 Ford in the 60's. I'd sure rather have that '40 than the FWD pigs we have now.

We're not saying that a solid axle is so superior that it should be used. Rather it isn't as bad as a lot of people who haven't used one think they are. And for many types of usage they are superior to IFS. If not, they wouldn't still be used in those cases.

cheapracer wrote:
Driven5 wrote:
Anyway, I've proved enough with factual evidence, didn't even include that Guy in the 60's at Lime Rock blowing all the fancy Euro's and home built IFS away with his Offy Midget - ........................... - check history, it's all there.
Goodnight.
I didn't see him do it but I heard people at Lime Rock talking about it for quite awhile afterwards.

And in the early 60s let's not forget "Old Yellow". From: http://www.hotrodhotline.com/feature/friends/0556gnr/
(The last paragraph on the page.)

"Ernie Nagamatsu displayed Max Balchowsky’s ‘Ol Yeller. This road racing car was not built to look pretty, but when it burst upon the scene in 1959 it pushed the European cars right out of the picture. ........"

We waited every month for the various sports car magazines to see what Max had done after invading another (left/right) race! :lol:
Author:  GonzoRacer [ July 3, 2010, 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Solid Front Axle - Anyone thought about using one?
Uhhhh, I don't wanna get all caught up in this argument that y'all been having for days now, and I certainly mean no disrespect to you, Rowdy, but, Old Yeller is one of my favorite cars... The bit below is from the website for the old car, now vintage racing on the west coast. The Old Yeller cars descended from a Doretti Swallow (which was based on a TR2, and therefore IFS) and from the Morgenson Special, which I don't know a lot about. Might have had a beam axle, don't know...

The link is http://www.oldyeller2.com/history4.html

On page 4 of the history, it says-

"The independent front unequal A arms were classically a Balchowsky design with the drilled upper Jaguar A arms (to allow absorption of forces upon impact) and the shortened by 4 inches lower stamped Pontiac lower A arms. The large Jaguar ball joint would help the stress load and the front suspension assembly could be adjusted for a specific track with shims and spacers. The rear suspension would be a modified Studebaker Champion locked rear end. The original transmission was a 4- speed from a C Jaguar. The Morris Minor steering rack provided the necessary quick steering needed. The Morris Minor torsion bars were used for most Road Racing Specials and the Old Yeller II was no different."

That's referring to "Old Yeller II" which is the car pictured. I believe the first car had a similar set-up, but records are a bit sketchy on just 'zackly what Max and Ina Balchowski had under the hood. One thing that there is a consensus on is that the "Backyard Special" outran some of the best Europe had to offer.
Author:  olrowdy_01 [ July 3, 2010, 9:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Solid Front Axle - Anyone thought about using one?
GonzoRacer wrote:
Uhhhh, I don't wanna get all caught up in this argument that y'all been having for days now, and I certainly mean no disrespect to you, Rowdy,

No problemo your link has more info than I remember about ol' yeller.

but, Old Yeller is one of my favorite cars...

I've got several of the older cars that I really like and ol' yeller is right up there in the pack.

The bit below is from the website for the old car, now vintage racing on the west coast. The Old Yeller cars descended from a Doretti Swallow (which was based on a TR2, and therefore IFS) and from the Morgenson Special, which I don't know a lot about. Might have had a beam axle, don't know...

Oops. :oops:

The link is http://www.oldyeller2.com/history4.html
[snip]
Good article. TNX for the link.

I seem to remember that the front of the car I was thinking off looked more like a '32 Ford roadster. I found the picture I posted by looking up his name since "old yellow" wasn't finding a picture of the car I expected to find. Maybe after 40+ years I'm mixing Max up with someone else who also had similar luck against sports cars with a modified 32 roadster.
Author:  carguy123 [ July 3, 2010, 11:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Solid Front Axle - Anyone thought about using one?
I still say build it and then come back and tell us all about it.

There's a reason they don't use them anymore, but there's no reason you can't since basically we're building anything we want here. It doesn't have to make sense to anyone but you.
Author:  BBlue [ July 4, 2010, 9:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Solid Front Axle - Anyone thought about using one?
olrowdy, you might try doing a search on AK Miller. He was active during that period, racing everything everywhere and certainly did not give a damn about what others were building.

Bill
Author:  GonzoRacer [ July 4, 2010, 10:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Solid Front Axle - Anyone thought about using one?
Yo, Rowdy-

One detail I noticed a long time ago: Max took a sports car chassis, put a big ol' 'Murican V8 in it and went out and kicked butt on the big time sportscar builders like Maser and Ferrari. One of the people that drove Old Yeller was a kid named Carrol Shelby, fresh off a chicken farm in Texas... Hmmmm.... Funny how history repeats itself. :shock:

JDK
Author:  Driven5 [ July 4, 2010, 1:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Solid Front Axle - Anyone thought about using one?
olrowdy_01 wrote:
We're not saying that a solid axle is so superior that it should be used. Rather it isn't as bad as a lot of people who haven't used one think they are. And for many types of usage they are superior to IFS. If not, they wouldn't still be used in those cases.
While that may be what you are saying...But not everybody is being as reasonable as you in having a rational discussion on both the strengths and weaknesses of the design.
Author:  olrowdy_01 [ July 4, 2010, 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Solid Front Axle - Anyone thought about using one?
Early Locost American style. As I said, it's been done before. And only $5 for the plans! :)

http://californiaclassix.com/archive/32_Ford_c165.html

I doubt the 1000# weight though considering that the engine alone weighed 525#. Then you had to add the axles, the running gear, transmission, battery, heavy frame etc. And it's ugly too!
_________________________________________________________________

But those old cars did handle fine. Especially if they were lowered as this design is. The main problem with the highboys, '40s etc was/is that the front and rear axles used wishbones that met near the middle of the car. When the car was pushed near the limit and if the body rolled suddenly (gusty wind etc) the axles were steered by the movement of the junction of the wishbones and the car would turn towards the center of a turn or wander around pretty bad. If you were aware of what was happening, the turn in affect would help you get around the turn.

If you had bad shocks the car would dart one way, the body would come out of the roll and start to go in the other direction etc etc. Especially if you had a motor in the trunk that you were going to overhaul!

The AFT man thought I was "loaded" and was very disappointed when I opened the trunk and there WAS a V-8 motor sitting back there. He asked why I had a motor in the trunk. I asked him, "Why, is it against the law?" :mrgreen:
Author:  cheapracer [ July 5, 2010, 2:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Solid Front Axle - Anyone thought about using one?
Driven5 wrote:
.But not everybody is being as reasonable as you in having a rational discussion on both the strengths and weaknesses of the design.


So giving a number of real world examples and factual technical replies to unfounded assumptions based on 70 year old myths isn't "rational"?

Anyway didn't reopen this for you, kf2qd could you please PM me as my outbox won't send for some reason, maybe it uses a beam axle or something.
Author:  olrowdy_01 [ July 5, 2010, 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Solid Front Axle - Anyone know of any sources/designs?
kf2qd wrote:
Anyone know of a source or design for a solid axle? I know all about the machining end of things, but don't currently have a mill big enough to make an axle big enough for a car. (gokart - maybe...)
Take a look at the last video on the link below and you will see some great views of the chassis, running gear etc. The front axle on this car appears to be forged. But you might be able to find a tube axle on some of the dwarf car etc sites. If you use a straight axle you shouldn't have much problem clearing the lower frame rail. If necessary you could lower the ride height 1" with a straight axle and you should be OK.

http://bringatrailer.com/2010/07/04/bat ... get-racer/
Author:  MustangSix [ July 5, 2010, 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Solid Front Axle - Anyone thought about using one?
I kind of like this one:

Image
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