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 Post subject: Re: McG-01 design phase
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:08 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:16 am
Posts: 94
I haven't gone away yet... Just finished moving to a new apartment and I'm going to get back to the car next Monday.

Agenda:
1) Kinematic suspension design, assumed load calcs, and control arm design
2) Looking into spindle and half shaft fatigue analysis with solidworks
3) Modeling suspension and known drivetrain components


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 Post subject: Re: McG-01 design phase
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:41 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:34 pm
Posts: 404
Location: SW West Consin
Hmmm. These guys keep telling you you are getting ahead of your self. IMHO you have it right but, forget about the house go for the shop FIRST. Believe me, I know. :cry:


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 Post subject: Re: McG-01 design phase
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:55 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:26 pm
Posts: 2
For the light type, you go for 13 inches this will be a good choice try this if you're one. Personally, I also use 13 inch wheels before and perfectly good.


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 Post subject: Re: McG-01 design phase
PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:57 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:16 am
Posts: 94
Screwing around with the front suspension tonight. A few rev 1 ride and roll results...
Attachment:
REV 1 Ride graphs.png
REV 1 Ride graphs.png [ 47.07 KiB | Viewed 1426 times ]


Attachment:
REV 1 Roll graphs.png
REV 1 Roll graphs.png [ 48.27 KiB | Viewed 1426 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: McG-01 design phase
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:04 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:16 am
Posts: 94
One graph I don't have above is the roll moment through ride iterations. It is rock solid.

My question to suspension designers out there is... does anyone have any insight on instant center migration? My experience has always been focused on controlling the RC but I never thought to much about the IC beyond the FVSA length. This current design has led me to think about the effects of the path of the IC through roll iterations as well as the range of motion. If I recall at around 3 deg of roll the IC moves inside the contact patch. I haven't worked out what the forces do when this happens yet but I thought I read before that this was a no no?

My next attempts will be to limit camber gain so we'll see how that effects the IC. I thought I was pretty far out there with near 100" FVSA but I don't like my camber graph. Probably has to do with the fairly drastic difference in relative lengths top to bottom of the control arms.


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 Post subject: Re: McG-01 design phase
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:21 am 
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Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:34 am
Posts: 15
http://www.h1v8.com/page/page/1821906.htm Here is a page with some info on installing an H1 into a catterham. which I know is a little different than what you're planning on building. None the less it's a 2.8l 400HP V8 based on the Hyabusa engine you're thinking about using. It only weighs about 200lbs. which is only about 50lbs. more than a regular Hyabusa engine and you get 2x the power and displacement. I was initially going to recommend you use the 4g63 for it's ability to reliably produce large amounts of power from a relatively small 2.0l displacement engine. Also the 4g63 can do this fairly inexpensively. a stock rebuilt 6bolt (refers to the # of bolts holding the flywheel to crankshaft) 4g63 can be purchased for just over $1200.00 which is capable of 350-400HP, And if you wanted to spend a little more, for around $3000.00 you could have a freshly rebuilt fully forged 6bolt 4g63 capably of reliably handling upwards of 600HP. However after reading a little more about your project, and more so your budget I found the H1 Hyabusa motor would probably better suit your needs. well I hope this is of some help/interest to you, and good luck with your project it sounds like it will be pretty sweet. Oh one last thing I didn't see a clear outline as far as your power goals for the car. Also you said you wanted it to be NA yet you want to possibly use E85. As far as I know you don't realize many of the benefits of E85 unless you're running forced induction, running very high compression pistons or extreme timing advancements because of it's high resistance to detonation. It has an anti-knock index rating of around 106-110 octane depending on where you live. I could be wrong on this, so please inform me if I'm mistaken. "Whether you think that you can, or you think that you can't. You are usually right." 'Henry Ford. :cheers:


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 Post subject: Re: McG-01 design phase
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:14 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:16 am
Posts: 94
Thanks for the info. I'm familiar with the H1 and would love to use it but I definitely don't want to spend $30,000 on just the engine.

I'm also familiar with the 4G63, used to own a 1g Talon AWD. If I were to go with that motor I'd probably build up the 4G64 though.

My first thoughts about the Busa were to get everything running NA and then boost it and then maybe E85. I want to limit as many issues as possible during the shakedown process so sticking with a stock motor and ECU would be a good idea.


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 Post subject: Re: McG-01 design phase
PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:22 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:16 am
Posts: 94
After a few jobless months I'm back on my feet with SW2012 and I'm able to spend time on this design again.

Even though it isn't really necessary at this stage, I'm most interested in making a decision on my powertrain setup and I went through a few options this week.

First I seriously looked at the H2 Busa kit for $12k + eBay Busa ($2500) because I needed to compare that with a built motor of my own which would be something like an eBay Busa ($2500) + dry sump kit ($2250) + billet clutch basket and inner hub ($840) + stroker kit ($897) + upgraded 2.692 first gear ($270) + upgraded output shaft and sprocket ($360) = $7117. So it is still significantly cheaper even with a turbo added and the H2 is henceforth ruled out.

Now I'm focused on few different options that I'm interested in and it will likely come down to whatever is the cheapest with exception to the fact that I very much would like a sequential transmission.
1) Busa chain drive setup with a taylor-race.com diff ($2500) and some sort of starter motor reverse setup
2) Busa chain drive setup with a Quaife QBA7R ($3500)
3) Busa drive shaft setup with a Quaife reverse box/diff (>$3500)
4) destroked 4G64T mated to a VW or Porsche transaxle

So far I've spent the most time on option 1 and 4 because I don't want to pay for the Quaife stuff although the QBA7R is elegant and may be worth the extra $1000 in the long run if I have to deal with additional electrical issues, blown starter motors, additional weight, extra design and fabrication time, and packaging issues.

Option 4 just sounds like a monster with a motor I love in a mid/rear configuration. 2.1L 11,000 RPM with a well supported car motor though I don't think the transaxle would hold up or shift with the power and RPM I'd be throwing at it. If anyone has seen something like this please point me toward some information.

Option 1 is my #1 so far just because it may be the cheapest, keeps the sequential trans, gearing is good with a 17/52ish setup to start, and it allows me to build up the motor over time so I can get it running all stock for cheap.
**Does anyone have experience with inboard brakes on a chain-driven diff? We had a horrible chatter with our FSAE car and we weren't sure if a slipper clutch would solve the problem.


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 Post subject: Re: McG-01 design phase
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:17 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:00 pm
Posts: 27
Location: Waterford, MI
i'm glad i stumbled upon this!

your design goals are similar to mine although i'm not fabbing uprights...

i'd say keep on designing, you can always make changes later if you want but knowing that you have a proper amount of engineering into your car is something that i'm also shooting for.

went and looked at those taylor-race diffs... nice bits of kit for sure. do you have any experience with them?

_________________
trying to design a DD friendly, road legal, MR BEC.


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 Post subject: Re: McG-01 design phase
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:21 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:16 am
Posts: 94
I was never a drivetrain guy on my FSAE team but the guy that were swore by them and there was a test done that showed reduced lap times over our previous diff which may have been an open diff, I'm not sure. Not much info for you but it was well liked.


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 Post subject: Re: McG-01 design phase
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:55 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:00 pm
Posts: 27
Location: Waterford, MI
well if it was well liked that's what i'm concerned about...

i don't want to buy one diff and then have to eventually get a different one down the road.

_________________
trying to design a DD friendly, road legal, MR BEC.


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 Post subject: Re: McG-01 design phase
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:16 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:16 am
Posts: 94
We also never ran into any quality issues. I recommend it.


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 Post subject: Re: McG-01 design phase
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:29 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:02 pm
Posts: 81
Location: Willingboro, NJ
Ha!

You have, perhaps unwittingly, revealed yourself to be an initiate into the blackest of the black arts. The cabal of which I assume you are a member guards its arcane secrets with a ferocious obfuscation which makes North Korea look like a sunny, open and welcoming culture. Indeed, most astrophysicists assert that a black hole emits more information than this glimless society. The black art to which I refer, of course, is the TIRE!

Now, I wouldn't want to mark you for a lonely and lingering death by asking about any of the deeper mysteries. But you mentioned that you had tire data for 13" slicks, so you may be able to answer my more mundane question. I'm designing for 205/60R13 Toyo RA1 or 888's. On a crumpled piece of paper, which I "obtained", let us say, in a cold, foggy Soho alley, was penciled (smudged, but legible) "RA1 Overall Diameter 22.7, Static Loaded Radius 10.4". Being mathematically astute you've immediately noticed that the Static Loaded Radius results in an axle centerline almost an inch nearer the ground than it would be if the Overall Diameter were used.

So:
Do you know if I should use the Static Loaded Radius dimension to locate my spindle axis the correct distance above the ground?


-Pete


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 Post subject: Re: McG-01 design phase
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:05 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:16 am
Posts: 94
At what tire pressure and load was the static loaded radius measured and are they close to what your tires will see? If you're not sure it may be safe to split the difference.


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 Post subject: Re: McG-01 design phase
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:29 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:02 pm
Posts: 81
Location: Willingboro, NJ
My guess is that tire pressure and load were both far above what my car will see. Toyo recommends 30-40 psi hot and the 7's I'm familiar with seem to be running mid to high teens. I expect to see about 350 lbs per wheel and the max rating for these tires (not that they measured the static loaded radius at this) is 1158 lbs.


-Pete


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