LocostUSA.com

Learning how to build Lotus Seven replicas...together!
It is currently December 13, 2017, 10:57 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Engine building
PostPosted: September 21, 2017, 5:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: December 7, 2012, 8:28 am
Posts: 1394
Location: Sarasota
Since rebuilding my engine and destroking it to a 2.2 from 2.0L I have had issue twice so I think it is time to learn to how to do it properly. High Performance Academy has what looks to be a nice video tutorial and wondered if anyone has done the course or can offer other similar courses or books on engine building. The courses are quite expensive but a fraction of what it would cost to have someone do the work for me.
https://www.hpacademy.com/courses/learn ... d-engines/

Let me know your thoughts.

_________________
2015 & 2016 EMod Florida State Autocross Champion
2013 & 2014 DSP Florida State Autocross Champion

Scrap Metal Build Log viewtopic.php?f=35&t=14558


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Engine building
PostPosted: September 21, 2017, 9:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: June 5, 2016, 7:03 am
Posts: 119
Location: ontario
wrightcomputing wrote:
Since rebuilding my engine and destroking it to a 2.2 from 2.0L I have had issue twice so I think it is time to learn to how to do it properly. High Performance Academy has what looks to be a nice video tutorial and wondered if anyone has done the course or can offer other similar courses or books on engine building. The courses are quite expensive but a fraction of what it would cost to have someone do the work for me.
https://www.hpacademy.com/courses/learn ... d-engines/

Let me know your thoughts.


Hi,
I managed to rebuild a 1.9L VW without attending the Academy.
Two books that I found sufficient:

How to rebuild the small block Ford, by George Reid

How to build horsepower by David Vizard.
I am sure there are tons of others.

I am about to start the rebuild (and power enhancement) of a 2.7 6 cyl Corvair. For this project I will follow a specialized book by Seth Emerson and Bill Fischer.

In rebuilding the VW I found good help from various VW forums too.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Engine building
PostPosted: September 22, 2017, 1:58 am 
Offline
The voice of reason
User avatar

Joined: January 10, 2008, 4:47 pm
Posts: 7403
Location: Massachusetts
It's likely a useful resource and the price is reasonable. Some things to be aware of though. You may talk funny after watching these hours of videos. I'm not sure they are more help than some books would be, I think you need the books and a good amount of reading on the Speedtalk forums too. It's frustrating and a lot of work. The stuff you learn on speedtalk is invaluable though. I was just doing a search now for you and they mentioned that F20 engines have great oil pumps and people move them over to K series engines for an upgrade. I don't remember which you have. Same thread happened to mention that F20 engines like 86-87% valve area for the ports. That's pretty specific, :rofl:

Has anyone else thought thinner oil might help? Perhaps it would drain faster and help with the oil level in your sump too.

Good luck!

_________________
Marcus Barrow - Car9 an open design community supported sports car for home builders!
SketchUp collection for LocostUSA: "Dream it, Build it, Drive it!"
Car9 Roadster information - models, drawings, resources etc.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Engine building
PostPosted: September 22, 2017, 8:34 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: December 7, 2012, 8:28 am
Posts: 1394
Location: Sarasota
Thanks Marcus. The Speed talk forum looks packed with info. I'm English so you all talk funny to me.

_________________
2015 & 2016 EMod Florida State Autocross Champion
2013 & 2014 DSP Florida State Autocross Champion

Scrap Metal Build Log viewtopic.php?f=35&t=14558


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Engine building
PostPosted: September 22, 2017, 9:32 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: July 3, 2015, 7:15 pm
Posts: 12
Location: Atlanta GA Area
Paul,
I would be sure to find specifics about your engine. It may have some "secrets" for keeping Hondas together or oiling tips, etc. The basics are the same, but DOHC stuff and VTEC is more precise.
Good luck, Dave


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Engine building
PostPosted: September 22, 2017, 9:58 am 
Offline
Mid-Engined Maniac

Joined: April 23, 2006, 8:26 pm
Posts: 5753
Location: SoCal
Or have a different builder get involved. I highly recommend Jeremy at Drag Cartel, which is in the Los Angeles area.

_________________
Midlana book: Build this mid-engine Locost!, http://www.midlana.com/
Kimini book: Designing mid-engine cars using FWD drivetrains, http://www.kimini.com/book_info/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Engine building
PostPosted: September 22, 2017, 12:35 pm 
Offline
The voice of reason
User avatar

Joined: January 10, 2008, 4:47 pm
Posts: 7403
Location: Massachusetts
Here's an interesting thread I'm reading on speedtalk, "Symptoms of too high or low oil pressure...". By the second page of the thread they are getting into some real math and what is going on in the bearings.

How to calculate the "Sommerfeld number S is (oil viscosity times bearing speed divided by pressure on the shaft) times (shaft diameter divided by double-sided bearing clearance)^2."

Suggested reading in the thread: NASA Reference Publication 2272, Fundamentals of Fluid Film Lubrication Handbook, by Hanrock.

Then a guy posting that he worked in a lab that "had machines that could work bearings enough to use up 1000hp in heating up the oil"! OMG.

https://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=48659

_________________
Marcus Barrow - Car9 an open design community supported sports car for home builders!
SketchUp collection for LocostUSA: "Dream it, Build it, Drive it!"
Car9 Roadster information - models, drawings, resources etc.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Engine building
PostPosted: September 22, 2017, 7:19 pm 
Offline
Always Moore!
User avatar

Joined: November 9, 2007, 3:40 pm
Posts: 3895
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Do you have any pictures of the bearing failures?

_________________
-Andrew
Build Log
Youtube


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Engine building
PostPosted: September 22, 2017, 7:35 pm 
Offline
Mid-Engined Maniac

Joined: April 23, 2006, 8:26 pm
Posts: 5753
Location: SoCal
One discussion about oiling systems that always stuck with me involved air getting whipped into the oil by the spinning crank. The air/oil mass in the pan can end up with as much as 50% air by volume, which effectively doubles the volume, causing the level to rise significantly. If it gets high enough, it starts hitting the crank and only makes things worse. The most interesting part though was hearing how the air/oil mixture is sucked up by the oil pump and sent to the bearings. Now, the assumed oil "wedge" that's supposed to keep the crank and rods from having metal-on-metal contact is effectively half as dense as it's supposed to be, meaning the crank and rods are twice as likely to destroy the bearings, even though monitored oil pressure remains normal. That's because 60psi of oil is no different to the pressure sensor than 60psi of air.

The other comment was that due to the above, things like Accusumps don't work as well as they could because they're accepting and feeding an oil/air mixture. The only right way to treat a high-rpm engine is with a dry sump system, where the oil froth is given time to separate.

This of course doesn't mean that every engine without a dry sump will fail, it just means that the oil has been degraded by some amount "X" which pushes the engine closer to the brink. Some have a larger margin of safety than others.

_________________
Midlana book: Build this mid-engine Locost!, http://www.midlana.com/
Kimini book: Designing mid-engine cars using FWD drivetrains, http://www.kimini.com/book_info/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Engine building
PostPosted: September 22, 2017, 8:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: January 18, 2015, 2:34 am
Posts: 35
Location: Los Angeles
You could always run an air/oil separator between the engine and an external oil cooler as I did on a NA Porsche 944 motor. The Accusump was fed after the cooler. This arrangement worked perfectly for me for four seasons before I blew a head gasket at Laguna Seca. I ran the accusump in the spare tire bay at the rear of the car. Altogether, I probably had 8-9 qts in the system. Lots of peace of mind.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Engine building
PostPosted: September 23, 2017, 8:22 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: December 7, 2012, 8:28 am
Posts: 1394
Location: Sarasota
a.moore wrote:
Do you have any pictures of the bearing failures?

I can't post photos anymore not sure why. Here is a link to a photo of the bearing.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Lo4jMq5RdWkigmdd2

_________________
2015 & 2016 EMod Florida State Autocross Champion
2013 & 2014 DSP Florida State Autocross Champion

Scrap Metal Build Log viewtopic.php?f=35&t=14558


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Engine building
PostPosted: September 23, 2017, 4:17 pm 
Offline
The voice of reason
User avatar

Joined: January 10, 2008, 4:47 pm
Posts: 7403
Location: Massachusetts
That be toast for sure. Doesn't look very burned though, but I think your caps did look like they got hot from another picture if I remember it. Thinner oil is also a big help for getting the air out in addition to draining from the head more quickly. These are both big issues for getting good oiling. The threads I was looking at on Speedtalk were emphasizing that there is no relation between oil film strength in the bearing and oil pressure or viscosity. Provided there is oil being supplied.

_________________
Marcus Barrow - Car9 an open design community supported sports car for home builders!
SketchUp collection for LocostUSA: "Dream it, Build it, Drive it!"
Car9 Roadster information - models, drawings, resources etc.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Engine building
PostPosted: September 23, 2017, 5:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: December 7, 2012, 8:28 am
Posts: 1394
Location: Sarasota
This is the video of when id failed if you skip to 1:20 it fails on the right hand tight sweeper. After that it ran for less than a minute before I pulled the engine. It's still a lot of revolutions but not enough time to get too much heat into the failed parts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg2GMXk-sm8

_________________
2015 & 2016 EMod Florida State Autocross Champion
2013 & 2014 DSP Florida State Autocross Champion

Scrap Metal Build Log viewtopic.php?f=35&t=14558


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
POWERED_BY