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 Post subject: Engine Selection
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:14 pm 
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How much of a difference will there be between a 13xx cc engine and something in the 1000 cc range, in the "superbike" flavor when installed in a car?

Would a sport tourer (FJR1300) be a good choice with more torque based curve?

I would like to use a Hayabusa motor, but for the 2-3 grand price difference for the engine + dry sump, you are halfway to a turbo.

I like the FJR being a shaft drive and having more grunt along witht eh price. Being a family of the R1, I would hope that it wouldn't need a sump either.

Any thoughts?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:27 am 
Personally, I'd be looking to the sport-tourer engines, as they're tuned for a little more torque, and would be a lot more driveable in a car. I think that one of the new Kawasaki Concours 1400 motors would make a stormer of a Locost engine...almost 200 hp (some testers have even said it exceeds 200, but the factory doesn't claim this), even though it's tuned to give more torque in the sport-tourer configuration. I've seen a few of these motors on Ebay already.

I've got a Concours 1000 and believe me, there's even a lot of power there (around 112 hp at the rear wheel). Kawasaki continued to make that motor for 20 years, virtually unchanged. I think that they got it right the first time, so it didn't need changes. Mine now has 108,000 kms on it, still uses no oil, and runs as strong as a new one. With the advent of the new 1400 motor, I expect we'll see another 20 years of reliable, factory-supported power from Kawasaki with it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:15 am 
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zetec7 wrote:
Personally, I'd be looking to the sport-tourer engines, as they're tuned for a little more torque, and would be a lot more driveable in a car. I think that one of the new Kawasaki Concours 1400 motors would make a stormer of a Locost engine...almost 200 hp (some testers have even said it exceeds 200, but the factory doesn't claim this), even though it's tuned to give more torque in the sport-tourer configuration. I've seen a few of these motors on Ebay already.

I've got a Concours 1000 and believe me, there's even a lot of power there (around 112 hp at the rear wheel). Kawasaki continued to make that motor for 20 years, virtually unchanged. I think that they got it right the first time, so it didn't need changes. Mine now has 108,000 kms on it, still uses no oil, and runs as strong as a new one. With the advent of the new 1400 motor, I expect we'll see another 20 years of reliable, factory-supported power from Kawasaki with it.


Any hints as to whether or not this will need to be dry sumped?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:43 am 
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1000 -> 1300 is only 300 cc's, but it's %30 percent. So I would expect it to make a big difference. Touring tuning would be good for a locost, it's a lot of weight compared to a bike, and it might also have higher gearing?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:26 am 
...as to whether the Concours 14 needs to be dry-sumped...I don't know. I haven't seen one in the flesh yet!


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 Post subject: MOTORS
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:44 am 
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Location: Anchorage Alaska
I believe a touring bike motor would make a great powertrain for a BEC Locost. Some are shaft drive, all are tuned more for the power range a light car will benefit from, and they are likely to cost a LOT less than the sport bike engines. Not much of any demand for them. Yet. :) They are also less likely to need expensive rebuilds or constant tuning.

If you want a track car then the sport bike engine might be more desireable, but for all around fun driving I say go for a touring bike engine.

Honda makes a fantastic V-4 touring bike that I can't think of the name of now, or if it is still in production, but I remember reading tests of it some years ago and thinking it would make a neat motor in a car.

The new Concourse 1400 is fantastic.

The Honda VTX cruiser has a dry sump stock which is a real plus.

James 8)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:31 pm 
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Posts: 678
Location: San Antonio
The honda v-4's are supposed to come back in 2009.

No idea on the quality of source though.

http://www.fasterandfaster.net/2007/08/ ... -2009.html
Quote:
Monday, August 06, 2007
Honda: V4 revival in 2008-2009!


The 2008 Honda VFR1000 may look something like this...
According to Spanish website Solomoto, we may see a resurgence of Honda’s legendary V4-powered bikes over the next two years. While the 1980s and 90s V4 Honda RC30 and RC45 are considered to be all-time performance bike greats, the current VFR800 sports-tourer simply isn’t in the same league. Its variable-valve-timing (VTEC) system has been criticized for its erratic performance, and the bike has steadily lost ground to newer, more sophisticated rivals.

Honda are now expected to build a non-VTEC, 1000cc V4 which will power their new VFR1000 sports-tourer. And unlike the existing VFR800, the new bike is likely to have USD forks at front, Honda’s Unit ProLink system at the back, and radially-mounted brakes with ABS.


Could this, the 2008 Fireblade, be the last CBR1000RR before an all-new RVF1000 takes over in 2009...?
Solomoto even say that the Honda CBR1000RR Fireblade may give way to an all-new RVF1000 by 2009. Instead of the Fireblade’s inline-four, the RVF1000 will use a 200bhp, 1000cc V4 and styling would mirror Honda’s MotoGP bikes. With Aprilia also working on their own 1,000cc V-four engine, which they claim will make more than 210 horsepower in race trim, maybe the V4 config is getting all set to make a big comeback. Should be worth waiting for!


http://www.fasterandfaster.net/2006/11/ ... again.html

Rotary bike?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:10 am 
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zetec7 wrote:
almost 200 hp (some testers have even said it exceeds 200, but the factory doesn't claim this), even though it's tuned to give more torque in the sport-tourer configuration.


The Japanese manufacturers have an agreement that ALL motors be limited to 200HP from the factory. It doesn't mean that the factory motors don't /make/ more power then that, but they are restricted to 200hp out the door. That was what Power Commanders and other FI tuners were made.

Another option is to look for some of the "Naked" bike motors like the Suzuki B-King (Busa Engine detuned for more torque and midrange) the Yamaha FZ1 (R1 engine detuned for more torque and midrange) Suzuki Bandit 1200 Kawasaki ZRX1100/1200 and the new Z1000, all are tuned for more midrange torque rather then top end HP. For a small compact package an Aprilia Litre motor from a Tuano or Mille/RSV or a Honda RC51 are both compact V-Twin DOHC 4 Valve motors that have tons of torque and push over 100hp. The most important aspect to look at is how much torque, and WHERE in the rev range the torque comes on and peaks. The higher the rev range you have to go to make 35+ftlbs of torque, the higher your going to have to rev the motor to get it moving. Why 35ftlbs? That seems to be the lowest torque I have spotted as used in LBC's that weight roughly 1500lbs. My cast iron A Series 1098cc made 40ftlbs of torque peak at about 3000rpm on a 5500rpm redline. Some of the older R1 engines didn't make 35ftlbs until almost 6000rpm. On a motorcycle, that isn't a problem, bike and rider were less then 750lbs. Now some of the touring bikes are pushing 650-850lbs. They make their torque low down the rev range. If you intend the BEC to be run on the street, your going to want the torque to come on much lower in the rev range.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:36 pm 
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I have been eyeing sport tourers, and even called a couple of places regarding them. They don't get them as often, but command less money. Though this is depending on demand, (I had a talkative guy on the phone) a couple of times they had a stack of newer bikes and thought to just crush them, but then there was a run on them due to some sort of problem with the engine. It just depends when you decide to spend the money. It sounds like when someone has wheat you want, you better buy it because there might not be another one for a while (complete).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:50 pm 
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I'm using a FJR1300 for the very reasons suggested above, more torque which is useful in a BEC, and much cheaper. I've seen them go on ebay for as little as $300. Only thing you have to consider is that some of the shafties spin the wrong way round, but that can be overcome.....

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 Post subject: Re: MOTORS
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:01 am 
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JagLite wrote:
I believe a touring bike motor would make a great powertrain for a BEC Locost. Some are shaft drive, all are tuned more for the power range a light car will benefit from, and they are likely to cost a LOT less than the sport bike engines. Not much of any demand for them. Yet. :) They are also less likely to need expensive rebuilds or constant tuning.

James 8)

I just checked eBay, that Kawasaki concours doesn't seem to cost any less than my R1 motor.

Moti

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