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Learning how to build Lotus Seven replicas...together!
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PostPosted: September 12, 2009, 4:23 pm 
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Just wondering if any longitudinally mounted front engine awd/4wd cars would be suitable for donors.

Would it have to be an awd car, or would a 4wd car work as well?

Oh, and other than subarus. Independent front suspension would be nice too. Although I'm sure there are some solid axle 4wd 4 cylinder older trucks around, I don't think those quite qualify as a good donor. :mrgreen:

Be nice to be able to make an awd locost relatively easily, even if it took a while or some cash to source the donor.

Although I do wonder about having vastly unequal driveshafts, since the front differential is usually offset a fair bit, isn't it? And throw in the much narrower car-would driveshaft length really matter? Or just on aggressive starts? Or would a front LSD(hell, put a rear one and center, if money permits, of course!).

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PostPosted: September 12, 2009, 5:26 pm 
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Since the Lotus 7 has the engine positioned so far behind the front axle compared to most front engined, AWD cars, you might have an easier time setting up something like the Ford RS200 but reversed.

It's got the engine and clutch in the rear, the transaxle up front, and a separate differential behind the engine. There are two driveshafts. One from the clutch to the transaxle, and another from the transaxle to the rear diff.

If you use something like an IRS quickchange diff , you can attach the transmisison on the engine.


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PostPosted: September 12, 2009, 8:33 pm 
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Do most front engine, awd/4wd cars have the front differential firmly packaged, where it is immobile? Which would force the engine to be farther forward than in a traditional locost?

I was thinking that in transmissions like this
http://www.burtonpower.com/technical_1/ ... arbox.aspx
Image

And the expensive version:
http://www.quaife.co.uk/Ford-Escort-Sie ... nt-gearbox

It looks like the mt(x)-75 transmission in the escape and jaguar x-type could be an option. Or am I completely totally wrong? Those can bolt up to either ford duratec or zetec motors in my brief research.

Am I incorrect in thinking that the little offshoot, with the red circle, is the transfer case, which you would connect a driveshaft to, and run up to a front differential? I'm interested in trying to find more transmissions like that, which might realistically allow for a 4wd/awd locost.

With that transmission specifically, the quaife ATB/LSD center differential is notated for only the quaife dog-box gearing. Is there not an LSD/ATB the differential otherwise?

What about 4wd jeeps? Aren't those longitudinally mounted, with a driveshaft going to the front? Edit: Bah, they're part time 4wd, useless for the street.

Believe it or not, I actually did brainstorm something like the ford RS200, although not in reverse. Although it was very very late and I was nodding off to sleep. So I'm not entirely sure of the validity of the idea. But here goes. :lol:

Take a transverse mounted awd/4wd vehicle, like DSMs, lancer evo's, etc, with a clockwise rotating engine. Then, flip it in back, mid engined, with the driveshaft powering the front differential. And hope that you can mount a counter clockwise rotating engine onto it, like a honda B/H series. Would that work, and would it be durable? :ack: Pretty sure it wouldn't. But hey, people flip over differentials and use them that way, so why not? :cheers: Note: I haven't done any research into the actual viability and longevity of that, just heard of people doing it.

Since I'm stupid, is the only difference between the same transmission for 4wd/awd the transfer case? Can I buy a rwd transmission, a transfer case, bolt them together, and have a 4wd/awd transmission?

Sorry for the disjointed rambling.

What about the 4wd/awd volvo or BMW's?

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PostPosted: September 12, 2009, 11:19 pm 
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How about a bike motor in the front and well ... a bike motor in the back too?

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PostPosted: September 13, 2009, 12:21 am 
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bike motor/trans mounted longitudinally, chain drive to a center differential, driveshafts to front and rear differentials....

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PostPosted: September 13, 2009, 3:34 am 
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Thought about it, but I'd kind of like to have a passenger, and the weight distribution might get a bit funky if you had the engine in the front or back, rather than beside you.

On the other hand, the weight distribution with both you and the engine right in the center of the car would be pretty fantastic. :lol:

Although it looks like the ford mtx75 could be doable, and probably cheaper than a BEC solution.

I just think that a traditional engine, traditionally mounted would make things simpler, and easier. :lol: On that note, how often do chains need tightening?

Of course, I just read this board to daydream, learn, and bounce ideas off of, no way in hell I'm going to start a build before I get my degree and have a garage I'll be in for a couple years. :lol: So what do I know? :roll:

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PostPosted: September 13, 2009, 9:31 am 
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so your saying you want to take a transverse engine and trans and turn them 90 degrees. then have custom drive shafts made to go to front and rear differentials. is this correct?


if so, and your thinking about an MTX75, then dont bother, for a couple of reasons. while you can put a Torsen or Quaife ATB LSD in one fairly easily, your still very limited as to what final drive ratios are available. the stock ratios are either a 3.84 for a Zetec trans or a 4.06 for a Duratec trans (yes the trans' are different, the bellhousing is different, although all the internals are the same), with the tallest FD ive seen coming from Quaife and its a 3.625. so by the time you multiply there and at the front/rear diffs, your gear ratios will be so low it would be useless. you will have this problem with any trans that was originally designed for a FWD car.

the other problem you will have with the MTX75 is the drive shafts. while im sure you could have some custom ends made up to go into the trans with u-joints in them, they will be expensive. the drivers side (would be your rear) has a circlip that keeps the axle in the diff. the passenger side, however, does not have a circlip as its a half shaft with a support bearing bolted to the block. then the CV shaft locks to the half shaft via a circlip. the support bearing is what keeps that side in the diff.

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PostPosted: September 14, 2009, 2:56 pm 
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striker2 wrote:
so your saying you want to take a transverse engine and trans and turn them 90 degrees. then have custom drive shafts made to go to front and rear differentials. is this correct?


Well, no. Not really. Just threw it out there when somebody brought up the Ford RS200.

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if so, and your thinking about an MTX75, then dont bother, for a couple of reasons. while you can put a Torsen or Quaife ATB LSD in one fairly easily, your still very limited as to what final drive ratios are available. the stock ratios are either a 3.84 for a Zetec trans or a 4.06 for a Duratec trans (yes the trans' are different, the bellhousing is different, although all the internals are the same), with the tallest FD ive seen coming from Quaife and its a 3.625. so by the time you multiply there and at the front/rear diffs, your gear ratios will be so low it would be useless. you will have this problem with any trans that was originally designed for a FWD car.


I think there is some confusion in that MTX75 both refers to a FWD transaxle, with or without a rear shaft for AWD of some capability. And a RWD transmission, with or without an awd transfer case.

I would be aiming for the longitudinal, RWD with transfer case-not the FWD transaxle. The flipped FWD transaxle w/ a driveshaft was just brainstorming, not a plan.

Although without doing the math, I'm curious about the gearing issue, since the ford escape has an MTX75, with an AWD option, doesn't it? And it functions just fine. Are you saying you couldn't gear it for acceleration, or it wouldn't be driveable?

It is probably too late now, but I was really looking for a list of cars with longitudinally mounted engines, with full time AWD. Not odd, impractical speculative ideas for an AWD locost.

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PostPosted: September 14, 2009, 6:37 pm 
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The Ford Escape/Mazda Tribute twins are a transverse layout with the AWD extension pointing backward out of the transmission near where the engine mounts. If you've ever seen a AWD Eclipse/Talon it's close to the same.

In the early year Escapes/Tributes the rear driveshaft is direct-coupled (AKA-locked) to the transmission with a "normally open" clutchpack in the rear differential unit. The "open" clutchpack means that the front gets all the power until the fronts start to turn faster then the rear. When that happens the shear load on viscous fluid in the clutchpack expands it and the fluid in-turn puts pressure on the clutchpack to provide some torque to the rear wheels. The unique feature here is that the fluid does not transfer torque itself, unlike most Viscous LSDs. The clutchpack transfers torque.

When ABS became standard on all models, they went to an electronically controlled clutch pack.



Clifs notes....Escape is transverse..even AWD models.


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PostPosted: September 14, 2009, 10:13 pm 
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I think there are some AWD Audi's that are longitudinal, however I suspect they have a front transaxle and you are looking for something with a seperate driveshaft to the front diff that you can extend, correct?

How about a skyline?
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=4846&p=62816&hilit=rb26#p62816


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PostPosted: September 15, 2009, 12:59 am 
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JSullivan wrote:
striker2 wrote:
so your saying you want to take a transverse engine and trans and turn them 90 degrees. then have custom drive shafts made to go to front and rear differentials. is this correct?


Well, no. Not really. Just threw it out there when somebody brought up the Ford RS200.

Quote:
if so, and your thinking about an MTX75, then dont bother, for a couple of reasons. while you can put a Torsen or Quaife ATB LSD in one fairly easily, your still very limited as to what final drive ratios are available. the stock ratios are either a 3.84 for a Zetec trans or a 4.06 for a Duratec trans (yes the trans' are different, the bellhousing is different, although all the internals are the same), with the tallest FD ive seen coming from Quaife and its a 3.625. so by the time you multiply there and at the front/rear diffs, your gear ratios will be so low it would be useless. you will have this problem with any trans that was originally designed for a FWD car.


I think there is some confusion in that MTX75 both refers to a FWD transaxle, with or without a rear shaft for AWD of some capability. And a RWD transmission, with or without an awd transfer case.

I would be aiming for the longitudinal, RWD with transfer case-not the FWD transaxle. The flipped FWD transaxle w/ a driveshaft was just brainstorming, not a plan.

Although without doing the math, I'm curious about the gearing issue, since the ford escape has an MTX75, with an AWD option, doesn't it? And it functions just fine. Are you saying you couldn't gear it for acceleration, or it wouldn't be driveable?

It is probably too late now, but I was really looking for a list of cars with longitudinally mounted engines, with full time AWD. Not odd, impractical speculative ideas for an AWD locost.


All MTX-75's are FWD trans axles, as thats what the MTX stands for, Manual Trans Axle. the vehicles with AWD that use the MTX75, like the escape/tribute and the very rare Mondeo AWD are all Zetecs, and they use the standard MTX-75 trans with a bolted on transfer case. obviously there are some differences inside the case, mostly involving the diff and final drive but i believe the output shaft as well.

the RWD trans that you are probably thinking of is the MT-75, which is completely different and shares nothing with the MTX-75. it also does not bolt to either the Zetec or Duratec. instead, it mates to the Cosworth YB engines that were found in the Cosworth escort

MTX-75
http://www.burtonpower.com/technical_1/ ... arbox.aspx

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PostPosted: September 15, 2009, 2:56 am 
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I don't see why people don't sugest the Nissan pile of AWD parts more often when looking at this kind of project.
GTR 5 speed costs you about $500 for a good one and they get thrown away pretty much... any Z32 bellhousing will bolt on to the GTR transmission, which allows use of any VG engine, any L series(Or LZ, LD, etc...) engine(with adapter), VH engine(with adapter), or even an SR engine(RWD version only, with adapter).


$500 for a nice low mile GTR tranny, ~$475 adapter from Mazworx, 300zx bellhousing(90-96), 300zx(90-96, N/A) flywheel, 300zx clutch, Nissan pickup front diff with passenger side pumpkin, with matching rear differential ratio..... done, AWD with a nice center differential and a tranny that can take more abuse than you can throw at it with the weight of a locost.

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PostPosted: September 15, 2009, 8:26 am 
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Does a GTR have a passive AWD? I thought they had all sorts of electronic trickery to make thier AWD work.


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PostPosted: September 15, 2009, 8:44 am 
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PhyrraM wrote:
Does a GTR have a passive AWD? I thought they had all sorts of electronic trickery to make thier AWD work.

IIRC its a 35/65 split.

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PostPosted: September 16, 2009, 7:12 pm 
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striker2 wrote:
the RWD trans that you are probably thinking of is the MT-75, which is completely different and shares nothing with the MTX-75. it also does not bolt to either the Zetec or Duratec. instead, it mates to the Cosworth YB engines that were found in the Cosworth escort


Yep. My mistake.

Dat7Guy wrote:
PhyrraM wrote:
Does a GTR have a passive AWD? I thought they had all sorts of electronic trickery to make thier AWD work.

IIRC its a 35/65 split.


While this seems to be my topic to be wrong in, here goes. :oops:

I thought the center differential in the Skyline transmissions was electronically controlled? The ATTESA-ETS system, or somesuch? Does the same computer control both engine and transmission, or is there a separate computer for the transmission? You talked about bolting other engines to the transmission, so I assume all the electronic trickery is a separate from the engine.

I think I remember reading the rear differential in the r33 and up was electronically controlled as well? It was also my (severely limited)understanding that the passive split was 100%, RWD, until the rear wheels ran out of traction, and then the front wheels became powered?

I also recall hearing it's a very heavy transmission/setup. Any truth to that?

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