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PostPosted: March 11, 2020, 3:23 pm 
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ccrunner wrote:
Hey Newt..

The lessons learned from my T5 experiment were these: It will 'technically' work, and on some level it's worth the effort.. In my case the input shaft was slightly bent which gave me an intolerable vibration, but other than that, it was a sound design.. It was initially really nice to have an integrated reverse and .73 overdrive :) It did end up proving to be a bit of a redundancy however with all of those gears (6 bike gears + 5 T5 gears) from which to choose.. I found the VFR motor wants to be up past 5K at least to make any power, and the T5 gear spread was such that eventually I left the T5 alone, and did all of my shifting through the close-ratio VFR tranny (truth be told the VFR box was simply more fun to shift/drive.. using the T5 always felt slow/lazy).. It was at that point that I ditched the T5.. Pulling it removed my self-inflicted vibration issue, and it also removed 70lbs from the car (it was also at this point that I the car 100% needed a Guibo, so I was up for a redesign anyway) :roll: .. I came to rationalize that I didn't really 'need' reverse (you don't on a BEC, it's just nice to have)- and I never looked back..

I can't remember all of the details, but I think at that time I was still running a Miata 4.1(?) diff, and it was way, way off for highway use.. In the end, with the VFR / 7.5 diff / and 20" tires, I settled on a 2.73 ring and pinion.. It seems most BEC guys end up around 3.0/3.1 at the diff, depending on tire size and intended use for the car..

That T5 will work as you're planning, it's just a matter of what you want/expect from it..

--ccrunner

Thank you for the valuable insight! I hope it ends up being a good thing. I'm kind of picturing it as like an autocross gear and a track gear. I'll pick one in the T5 but all shifting will be done with the sequential transmission in the Hayabusa engine. I'll probably be in 4th most the time unless someone revs their engine at me at a stop light... Then it's on.

I've attached some of my numbers below. I know sometimes it's hard to decipher other peoples Excel sheets but it makes sense in my head. My goals are to have a 1st gear that will absolutely rip and a tolerable cruising RPM at 70MPH.


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PostPosted: March 11, 2020, 3:44 pm 
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Yes, rip is the right word!

What application flange will you be using for the output? Any issue with having the hardened output shaft resplined or can you do that in-house too?

EDIT, I see you said 5th was going to be the output flange so no need to machine other than cut the end off of the output shaft. Looks like the shifter will be interesting.

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PostPosted: March 12, 2020, 7:35 am 
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Miatav8,MstrASE,A&P,F wrote:
Yes, rip is the right word!

What application flange will you be using for the output? Any issue with having the hardened output shaft resplined or can you do that in-house too?

EDIT, I see you said 5th was going to be the output flange so no need to machine other than cut the end off of the output shaft. Looks like the shifter will be interesting.

I looked pretty hard for some sort of flange or yoke that would fit the 5th gear splines. I didn't have any luck finding one.

Yeah the shifter will be interesting. I've got a couple ideas for that but I'll probably deal with it later on.

Apparently I forgot to take after pictures but I took the teeth off of 5th gear, cut the end of the shaft to length, turned it down, and then cut some threads. We have a little baby lathe at work but it's way better than the lathe that I don't have at home so I make do with it.


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PostPosted: March 12, 2020, 7:58 am 
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And now for the flange. I machined a hub with an interference fit for the blank 5th gear and had a blank 1/2" thick flange cut on the waterjet. Fit those two together and tacked them. I heated the flange assembly and froze the 5th gear and put them together. Then I preheated the whole assembly and put a triple pass TIG weld on it with a 309 rod.

There's a chance I annealed the hardened splines. We'll find out if they strip. This will be a pretty good test of my machining/welding skills. That one weld will be transferring all power between the second transmission and the differential and it could potentially spin over 6000RPM (if I'm brave enough to stay in it that long) so any eccentricity will make itself known for sure. In the next post I'll show what I did for final machining.


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PostPosted: March 12, 2020, 9:00 am 
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Beautiful TIG welding :cheers:

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PostPosted: March 12, 2020, 12:56 pm 
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rx7locost wrote:
Beautiful TIG welding :cheers:

Thanks! Been doing it for a while but can always learn more.


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PostPosted: March 12, 2020, 1:03 pm 
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For final machining I put the flange on the transmission shaft and chucked it up in the lathe. The most important things here are the face of the flange being perpendicular to the axis of the shaft and the pilot bore being 1) perfectly concentric with the shaft and 2) a snug fit for the differential flange. A test drive will tell... in how ever many years from now.

EDIT: It's been a while since I machined this. I noticed in the first picture I have a 3 jaw chuck on the lathe and in the second picture I have a 4 jaw chuck. I must have determined that there was too much run out with 3 jaw and switched to the 4 jaw to dial it in to basically zero. Which I'm sure took me forever and ever because I'm really slow at it. It's definitely worth the extra time at this stage to minimize the run out though. Can't fix it after the fact. Also, the flange can be put on the shaft in as many different positions as there are splines (23 if I remember correctly?) so I punched marked the end of the shaft and the flange so that the flange is always installed on the shaft exactly how I machined it.


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PostPosted: March 12, 2020, 1:59 pm 
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Nice. It looks like you brought the output shank up to the slip yoke od so you can use the standard output shaft seal. A nice compact 4 spd with reverse!

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Miata UBJ: ES-2074R('70s maz pickup)
Ford IFS viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13225&p=134742
Simple Spring select viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11815
LxWxHt
360LA 442E: 134.5x46x15
Lotus7:115x39x7.25
Tiger Avon:114x40x13.3-12.6
Champion/Book:114x42x11
Gibbs/Haynes:122x42x14
VoDou:113x44x14
McSorley 442:122x46x14
Collins 241:127x46x12


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PostPosted: March 12, 2020, 5:23 pm 
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Miatav8,MstrASE,A&P,F wrote:
Nice. It looks like you brought the output shank up to the slip yoke od so you can use the standard output shaft seal. A nice compact 4 spd with reverse!

I can't remember the OD of the slip yoke but I don't think the stock output seal would have left enough wall thickness around the turned down 5th gear. I used SKF part# 19762. It's for 2" shaft size and a 2-5/8" bore. I had just enough meat in the new rear cover to bore out to 2-5/8" for the seal.

I cut off the end of the counter shaft (I think it's technically called the cluster gear) to fit my new cover. It's a pain to pull that shaft out so I used some cardboard to keep metal dust out of the bearings. It still spun silky smooth after I got done. I also had to transfer the location of the reverse shift shaft to the new cover, machine a hole, and then turned a little housing to press into it and support the end of the reverse shaft. I removed 1st and 2nd gear because they'd be way too much reduction and it saves a little weight. I can put them back in if they end up being needed though. Unfortunately the gears on the cluster gear are part of the casting. It'd be a lot of work to remove those but maybe one day I'll come back for the minimal weight savings. Let's prove the concept first. So it's now a two speed with reverse.


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PostPosted: March 12, 2020, 5:30 pm 
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And voila! Compact two speed/reverse transmission. It's still 50 lbs but that's better than the 70+ that it was. And I believe I took well over 12" out of the length. Now to start building some frame around it.


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PostPosted: March 12, 2020, 5:51 pm 
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This is the way I should have done mine, but I don't have the knowledge base, or skill set, or machining ability... at very least this shows me that I need to get a lathe and to spend the time learning to use it :wink:

I know your build log is a bit behind real time, but I wonder if there's any gain for you to chop 7-8" off of that T5 (or is it now a T2? :lol: ) input shaft? A minimal weight loss, but maybe more importantly, it could help you lose a degree or two on your rear driveshaft angle..

--ccrunner


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PostPosted: March 12, 2020, 6:07 pm 
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For the shifter...

Aren't there some variations of the T5 that have the shifter up on the tranny main cover? (the part you left intact).. I think it was on the Chevy S10 version??? Not sure if that's true, and I don't mean to send you down a rabbit hole, but I thought that shifter could be had in a more forward position than where you had to cut yours off of the tail..

--ccrunner

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Dean

1972 Honda N600 Restomod "ccrunner's N600 VFR800 repower"

1963 Volvo P1800 Restomod
http://locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=16309

1959 Berkeley SE492 Restomod...
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=19397

"ccrunner's 1960 MGA coupe Restomod" found on MGExp.com


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PostPosted: March 12, 2020, 7:04 pm 
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Impressive Newt! Are you going clutchless and torque tube versus a typical driveshaft?

CC, the s10 shifter base would require the output shaft flange to be 3-4 inches further out. With this arrangement, the shifter can "float" without being a factor in the position of the output flange. My spit has the s10 T5. The tailhousing extends another 11 inches or so past the shifter base.

_________________
Miata UBJ: ES-2074R('70s maz pickup)
Ford IFS viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13225&p=134742
Simple Spring select viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11815
LxWxHt
360LA 442E: 134.5x46x15
Lotus7:115x39x7.25
Tiger Avon:114x40x13.3-12.6
Champion/Book:114x42x11
Gibbs/Haynes:122x42x14
VoDou:113x44x14
McSorley 442:122x46x14
Collins 241:127x46x12


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PostPosted: March 12, 2020, 9:35 pm 
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ccrunner wrote:
This is the way I should have done mine, but I don't have the knowledge base, or skill set, or machining ability... at very least this shows me that I need to get a lathe and to spend the time learning to use it :wink:

I know your build log is a bit behind real time, but I wonder if there's any gain for you to chop 7-8" off of that T5 (or is it now a T2? :lol: ) input shaft? A minimal weight loss, but maybe more importantly, it could help you lose a degree or two on your rear driveshaft angle..

--ccrunner

Ha! A T2 it shall be now! If you look closely at the end of the throw out bearing retainer there is a black sharpie mark. That's about where the splines end and it necks down after that unfortunately. I'll cut it off about an inch in front of that to leave some spline. I wish I could take more out of it. We're getting real close to real time.
ccrunner wrote:
For the shifter...

Aren't there some variations of the T5 that have the shifter up on the tranny main cover? (the part you left intact).. I think it was on the Chevy S10 version??? Not sure if that's true, and I don't mean to send you down a rabbit hole, but I thought that shifter could be had in a more forward position than where you had to cut yours off of the tail..

--ccrunner

I spend a lot of time down rabbit holes. :D The S10 transmission below is the only one I'm aware of. It would be nice if there was a shifter mechanism that sat right on top of that cover. I can actually slide that whole shifter shaft out the front of the cover. It will just require some new carefully drill holes for the roll pins that hold the shift fork in place.


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Last edited by Newt on March 12, 2020, 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: March 12, 2020, 9:39 pm 
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Miatav8,MstrASE,A&P,F wrote:
Impressive Newt! Are you going clutchless and torque tube versus a typical driveshaft?

CC, the s10 shifter base would require the output shaft flange to be 3-4 inches further out. With this arrangement, the shifter can "float" without being a factor in the position of the output flange. My spit has the s10 T5. The tailhousing extends another 11 inches or so past the shifter base.

I'm planning to just use a driveshaft. The differential will be centered but since the pinion is already offset to the passenger side that helps me with my driveshaft angle since the bike output is also to the passenger side. The only clutch will be the one in the bike engine.


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