LocostUSA.com

Learning how to build Lotus Seven replicas...together!
It is currently September 22, 2021, 10:35 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: sizing dry sump tank
PostPosted: April 10, 2021, 1:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: September 14, 2020, 12:14 pm
Posts: 11
So after buying a dry sump system for a Hayabusa I still haven't been able to install it because I can't find any clear information on how to size the dry sump tank I been told 5 liters is the absolute minimum and anything from 2 to 3 gallon is recommended.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: sizing dry sump tank
PostPosted: April 10, 2021, 3:11 pm 
Offline
Automotive Encyclopedia
User avatar

Joined: December 22, 2006, 2:05 pm
Posts: 7040
Location: "Banana Republic"
If the tank is located close to the engine (short lines) and there is no aftermarket oil cooler, twice the normal wet sump capacity but it will only be filled to 2/3rds capacity. If the busa held 3.75 qts, that is 7.5 qts/7.1 liter/1.87 gallons.


A sight glass allows you to see how well the system is working to keep the pan level low away from the spinning crank. System efficiency can be determined by how much the tank level drops between idle and max revs.

_________________
My posts are my own opinion and do not represent an official public position by any other person, place, thing, animal, vegetable, mineral, etc.
https://www.ntd.com/exclusive-arizona-s ... 56317.html

https://truthinenergyandclimate.com/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: sizing dry sump tank
PostPosted: April 11, 2021, 8:30 am 
Offline

Joined: September 14, 2020, 12:14 pm
Posts: 11
That is another thing I was not sure of either to run an oil cooler or not I know most people that run Hayabusa remove the oil cooler because according to them the benefits are slight and it even more common to do oil cooler delete in turbocharged Hayabusa. As for the tank placement, I was going to put it a meter to a meter and a half away from the engine.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: sizing dry sump tank
PostPosted: April 11, 2021, 10:11 am 
Offline
Automotive Encyclopedia
User avatar

Joined: December 22, 2006, 2:05 pm
Posts: 7040
Location: "Banana Republic"
I would not add a turbo to anything without adding an oil cooler unless I plan to cut my oil change interval in half or go full synthetic. If the engine getting a turbo already has an oil cooler, I’d fit a higher capacity or more efficient cooler. I doubt the changes to add a minimal capacity dry sump system are as effective as the original cooler. If the original cooler is thermostat controlled (flows only when the engine is warmed up) I don’t see the downside to keeping it except a small pressure drop through the core.

Just because somebody decided it would be ok to delete the cooler on a race bike because it didn’t seem to help much doesn’t make a good idea when the engine and cooler are in the confined space of a car, sitting in a long line at the dairy queen drive-thru or in stop and go traffic. It is easier to delete it later than not have it in the first place. Don't paint yourself into a corner.

_________________
My posts are my own opinion and do not represent an official public position by any other person, place, thing, animal, vegetable, mineral, etc.
https://www.ntd.com/exclusive-arizona-s ... 56317.html

https://truthinenergyandclimate.com/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: sizing dry sump tank
PostPosted: April 11, 2021, 11:31 am 
Offline

Joined: September 14, 2020, 12:14 pm
Posts: 11
See that same logic is what I thought to why the heck would you delete a cooler? Just the added peace of mind alone would be enough to make me keep it but I asked the question in a forum a couple of months ago and it was back-to-back replies of it not doing much. Anyways recently I noticed a small leak on the stock Hayabusa cooler and have been considering a mishimoto 19-row oil cooler as a nice replacement, any thought? Also thanks again for the sizing recommendation for the dry sump tank I was going for a 2 gallon one but the height of the dam thing made me ask the question as the 1.5-gallon one had a much more desirable height.
As for turbo, it isn't in the current plan but maybe next year I would consider it nothing crazy just a nice and reliable 300 to 350hp is my goal.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: sizing dry sump tank
PostPosted: April 11, 2021, 1:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: July 17, 2008, 9:11 am
Posts: 5931
Location: West Chicago,IL
I would think including a thermostat in that cooler system so the oil comes up to temperature quicker would be a good idea Just speaking from an armchair mechanic's point of view.

_________________
Chuck.

“Any suspension will work if you don’t let it.” - Colin Chapman

Visit my ongoing MGB Rustoration log: over HERE

Or my Wankel powered Locost log : over HERE


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: sizing dry sump tank
PostPosted: April 11, 2021, 4:25 pm 
Offline
Automotive Encyclopedia
User avatar

Joined: December 22, 2006, 2:05 pm
Posts: 7040
Location: "Banana Republic"
I pulled up a parts catalog drawing for an 07 and older hayabusa. It does not appear to have a stat.

To replace the original cooler which does not appear to have a stat, I’d go with the 10 plate versus the 19 for a several reasons:
1) Without a stat, the oil will be much slower to warm up (more wear) despite a closed coolant stat (which still bypasses coolant to eliminate hot spots).
2) Without a stat, the oil may not reach optimum operating temp with a 19 plate. Oil that doesn’t get hot enough can cause sludge.
3) The 10 plate should still be an improvement over the original cooler with about the same pressure drop.
4) The 10 plate is shorter. The cooler and lines need to stay full of oil after shutoff, so the lines and cooler need to be no higher than the fittings on the crankcase to prevent drain back. This way when you crank it, oil fills the system much quicker to reach the already turning crank. I’d mount it as low as possible with full flow ½ inch elbows. An alternative is to use a small piston accumulator (1-1.5qt and can be mounted sideways instead of vertical) with solenoid (like they put on ambulances) if this is impractical.

You can get an oil stat for about $100 and put a larger cooler (within the capacity limits of the pump) as well as an accumulator to fill it while you hold a button on the dash (like heating glow plugs for a diesel) until you see the pressure come up on the mechanical gauge or use electric gauges and tie the noid into the keyed pwr so the noid is open, but just leave the key in the run position until you see some pressure. The accumulator should be installed anyway with a turbo for the same reason. It’s only money but it starts getting crowded under the hood with the extras.

For me, reliability is the most important thing but everybody has a different agenda. Some want broken parts as trophies or just don’t care about the cost. This is the locost forum after all.

_________________
My posts are my own opinion and do not represent an official public position by any other person, place, thing, animal, vegetable, mineral, etc.
https://www.ntd.com/exclusive-arizona-s ... 56317.html

https://truthinenergyandclimate.com/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: sizing dry sump tank
PostPosted: April 11, 2021, 7:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: September 14, 2020, 12:14 pm
Posts: 11
I completely forgot about the oil thermostat but after looking at many Hayabusa build with a dry-sump I can't find one that makes use of one, I did find some build that use an accumulator. What made me think that a 19-row oil cooler would be a good option was this pdf https://www.sbdmotorsport.co.uk/app/uploads/2020/11/OS-DSK-BUSA-01_Hayabusa_Dry_Sump_Instructions.pdf which mention a 16
row x 230mm wide radiator as a minimum.
Reliability is a high priority on this build as this engine will be used very regularly.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: sizing dry sump tank
PostPosted: April 12, 2021, 1:02 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: January 28, 2021, 3:32 pm
Posts: 146
Location: Port Orchard, WA
Having built a bunch of dry sump systems while working on vintage race cars, I'll basically second everything MV8 said. I'd put a thermostat in unless you're really conscientious about fully warming up before you run hard (and even then I'd still recommend it). If you're using it as a track car, I'd recommend an oil heater in the tank as well. A 2 gallon tank should be about right for that engine, and you want to mount it so the tank outlet to the pump is higher than the pump.

Just my $.02...

Bill J

_________________
Bill J
442 Locost - in progress
Mid-engine Beetle - In Progess
'12 GTI - Daily
'01 Chevy Cargo Van - Workhorse parts hauler


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: sizing dry sump tank
PostPosted: April 12, 2021, 7:05 am 
Offline
Automotive Encyclopedia
User avatar

Joined: December 22, 2006, 2:05 pm
Posts: 7040
Location: "Banana Republic"
Looks like a clever, very well engineered product. I agree that 16 plate is a minimum because it won’t see normal oil directly from the pump, but aerated foamed oil after it passes through the engine. Aerated oil will not transfer as much heat through the cooler so the 16 plate is probably close to the same heat exchange capacity to a pressure side install of a 10; ok for NA or just a few psi. You can dial in your psi based on the capacity of the oil system to control the oil temp to work with what you have.

Apparently the scavenge pump capacity is adequate for the restriction of a typical pressure side cooler with ½ inch fittings so an oil stat with ½ inch ports should flow sufficiently. You can add coolers in parallel with full flow tees but the bottleneck will still be any ½ fittings in the circuit. Two parallel returns with ½ fittings all the way through are still more restrictive than a single ¾ system. Dry sumps are usually ¾ minimum size on the return. I suggest getting this vehicle completely sorted out as NA first before adding power.

_________________
My posts are my own opinion and do not represent an official public position by any other person, place, thing, animal, vegetable, mineral, etc.
https://www.ntd.com/exclusive-arizona-s ... 56317.html

https://truthinenergyandclimate.com/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: sizing dry sump tank
PostPosted: April 12, 2021, 12:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: September 14, 2020, 12:14 pm
Posts: 11
Rennkafer wrote:
Having built a bunch of dry sump systems while working on vintage race cars, I'll basically second everything MV8 said. I'd put a thermostat in unless you're really conscientious about fully warming up before you run hard (and even then I'd still recommend it). If you're using it as a track car, I'd recommend an oil heater in the tank as well. A 2 gallon tank should be about right for that engine, and you want to mount it so the tank outlet to the pump is higher than the pump.

Just my $.02...

Bill J

I order one the minute MV8 mention it like I said I had completely forgotten about it, I bought a Mishimoto one I saw on sale. I pretty much want to get get in it and go I know this isn't so realistic but I want to get as close to it as I can. I don't really expect to use it on the track mainly just some spirited street driving. On another note, after much much googling I found a setup that uses an oil thermostat that I can reference.
Image
Link to the spec https://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=186181


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: sizing dry sump tank
PostPosted: April 12, 2021, 12:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: November 6, 2020, 6:29 pm
Posts: 233
Location: Spring, TX
I'll have to look at mine (dry sump Mazda 13B) when I get home, I don't recall a thermostat anywhere when I was disassembling, unless it's built into the sump tank. Might be something I look at adding.
Current setup, pre-disassembly, showing the sump tank (bottom left) & catch can (top left):
Image

_________________
13B Powered Rotus Geauxkart
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=20899


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: sizing dry sump tank
PostPosted: April 12, 2021, 1:10 pm 
Offline
Mid-Engined Maniac

Joined: April 23, 2006, 8:26 pm
Posts: 6159
Location: SoCal
To the OP, I assume that the kit did not include hose fittings. Brace yourself for that, as just the hose ends will be $$$ - especially the large one involving bends. Try very hard to minimize bends in your system, both for flow and cost containment.

_________________
Midlana book: Build this mid-engine Locost!, http://www.midlana.com/
Kimini book: Designing mid-engine cars using FWD drivetrains, http://www.kimini.com/book_info/


Last edited by KB58 on April 12, 2021, 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: sizing dry sump tank
PostPosted: April 12, 2021, 1:13 pm 
Offline
Mid-Engined Maniac

Joined: April 23, 2006, 8:26 pm
Posts: 6159
Location: SoCal
Oh, and a lesson I learned the hard way. Any hoses feeding the scavenge pumps should either have springs inserted into them, or be (expensive) Teflon hose. That's because the hot oil may soften the hoses to the extent that they can get sucked flat from the vacuum. I had that happen with my turbo drain line, causing the oil to back up in the turbo and flood out into both the compressor and turbine side, resulting in an EPIC oil cloud during dyno tuning.

_________________
Midlana book: Build this mid-engine Locost!, http://www.midlana.com/
Kimini book: Designing mid-engine cars using FWD drivetrains, http://www.kimini.com/book_info/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
POWERED_BY