1000 cc Honda engine discussion/?

[paulneartarga]

Been reading around here the last few weeks and have not seen much on it,if already posted somewhere point me in the direction please.

Would like to place a 1000cc Honda sportbike engine(CBR RR?)in the front of a chassis "sideways"with a driveshaft powering the rear wheels.Any huge roadblocks with that particular engine in a car and sideways?

Or is it better to place it midship and do chaindrive?

Is it possible to run that engine in a car without having to go drysump?

[rapt]

I would first figure out the balance and weight distribution before deciding where to put the engine. Also, there's been a lot of discussion here about direction of rotation, flipping the rear end, and all the problems that causes.

I have a Yamaha Virago engine and rear end (three-wheeler) so they match, but I am adding a driveshaft about four feet long down the center between the seats. For this I have to jigger around with U-joints and splines on both ends, and add a non-rotating cover tube. If your transmission output is designed for chain drive you'll have to adapt that to a U-joint too if you go with shaft drive.

Disclaimer: I've not yet completed nor test driven a locost car.

[paulneartarga]

Not real concerned about the balance or weight distribution just yet,nor the making of a driveshaft.

Just don't know if the Honda engine is proven in a car or if its even possible.Not sure which way the output would rotate and if the engine would starve for oil under the g's of a car chassis.

I know the Busa needs a dry sump and the R1 is good to go as is,but I have not seen anything on the Honda.

Looking to place the Honda in similar to this setup....

http://www.youtube.com/user/mikemaxo

[JagLite]

If you look at the British Locost site you will find a lot more info on bike builds. I believe the CBRR is called the Fireblade in the UK and many have used that engine so they have found out what works and what doesn't.

For your engine you will need an adapter that replaces the countershaft sprocket so you can attach the driveline. The shaft rotation will be correct so no problem there. Those of us that have shaft drive bike engines have to deal with the reverse rotation of the drive shaft, not chain drive bikes. Well, there are a few that have the sprockets on the right side but for the majority rotation will be no problem.

Check out the UK site for info on oil system issues, I don't remember if there are or not, as well as the sprocket adapter and all general situations that come with using the Honda 1000 engine. It is a good one!

James

[robertwa]

Plenty have used the CBR 929 or 1000 as Jaglite mentions. Should be straighforward - however you should check the location of the sprocket - the UK builds are all right hand drive. You may find that when you line it up in the engine bay, that the engine sits over to the left hand side, blocking a path for the steering column.

I remember readingf that the R1 had more of an offset output shaft than other engines making it easire to fit in a LHD car.

Chris Fiaccone built his car in the US with a Honda fireblade but made his RHD.

[G-Man]

I have a Formula Car running a 2000 Honda CBR 929RR, aka Fireblade. It sits transversely as in the motorbike, and I use a chain drive. I can't address issues from turning it sideways and/or running a driveshaft.

I can speak highly of the engine. I mean, it's a Honda! Remember their 1.5 liter Flat 10 Formula 1 engine from the early 1970s? They've still got it! It starts easily, idles and runs smoothly, and puts out more power than I can handle. Specs for my model are 150 crank hp (real world 137 or so) and 67 ft/lbs of torque. Max HP at 10,500 rpm, redline at 11,500, and peak torque around 9K.

My car is race only. I run the stock oil system, which includes the Honda oil-water oil cooler. I don't have oiling issues (that I know of). I run a big Fluidyne radiator but no fan so my cooling isn't comparable.

Suzuki engines are the most powerful and popular. Bike engines are impressive and tend to get revamped every two years, so current 1-liter engines put out about 180 hp. (Yup! Wow.) Hondas are less popular for racing than Kawasaki or Suzuki, but I don't know if there is any reason for that.

There's lots of bike engine information at
www.apexspeed.com and dsrforum.yuku.com (aka SportsRacerNet)

I've seen Chris Fiaccone's car after Brandon bought it and was totally impressed. His motor is a bit older and may not be Fuel Injected. I have some photos of his setup.

PM me if I can help more.

[paulneartarga]

Thanks guys,thats the kind of stuff I need to start with.

Never even considered the engine might be in the way of the steering column.

I really like Honda's so would like to get it to work for me.Back to more research .

[Assphalt Kicker]

i've been looking at building a bec... and i don't really like the idea of turning the engine 90degree's and running a prop shaft beacuse, the engine is placed in a position were it isn't ment to perform.

but if u put the engine in the mid of the car and run it to a chain differential and build from that u will only have to suffer lateral forces that will slosh oil in the oil pan. this is easily fixed by welding baffles in the oil pan, dry sump, or buying a 350$ oil pan that has the baffles in it and gives u a extra 1-2in ground clerance.

this is just my preference but i have seen a lot of fireblade engine and i read of 2 CBR1000 engine in a race only car, so u should be fine...
and i'll look to see where i found the CBR engine in a car and send u the link

[G-Man]

I second what "assphalt kicker" wrote - yes, consider baffling the oil pan. Also, there are several companies that can provide high-volume (NOT high-pressure) oil pumps - I personally recommend www.rilltechracing.com.

I don't have a baffled oil pan and would like to get one, along with a high-capacity pump. That, plus adding a remote oil cooler and one of the large external oil filters would add 2-3 quarts of oil capacity to the system. That should eliminate any cooling issues and give you a bigger sump to draw from. Or, consider an Accusump or a dry sump. Yeah, the dry sump is not so locost.

I'm not sure how practical or safe it would be to run a long chain from a front motor to a rear differential. Gotta be some serious power losses in a long chain.

I broke a master link at 10,500 rpm accelerating past 115 mph. The chain fell 'gently' out the back. No damage to car or engine, but I upgraded the chain guard. (The amazing corner workers found and returned my chain - then helped me attach a new master link. I love the corner workers!!)

I can't address the oiling issues of turning the engine 90 degrees.

[paulneartarga]

I'm not sure how practical or safe it would be to run a long chain from a front motor to a rear differential. Gotta be some serious power losses in a long chain.

I wouldn't even consider a long chain.

It would have to be front engine rear diff. with a driveshaft or mid-engine with a short chain to the diff.

A new oil pan with baffles is not a big deal in the overall picture.

[robertwa]

You also should consider what your intended use is for the car - track days, racing, or just spirited driving on public roads - before dropping coin on dry sumps, baffled sumps or more elaborate oil and cooling systems.

For regular driving, plenty of people have built cars with bike engines mounted sideways and ran things as stock with no issues.

[a.moore]

There seems to be a disproportional amount of BEC engine failures on the UK board. Maybe they are just that more popular over there but it seems like every week or two, someone kills another one (or maybe the CEC guys tend to not advertise as much?) I secretly wonder how many are from oil starvation since it seems to happen when the car has been driven hard.

Either way, I'd have an oil pressure and oil temperature gauge installed from the start on any engine in one of these cars, especially if its a bike engine. If you see any drop in pressure beyond about 5psi under steady-state cornering (like on a skidpad) in BEC, you will need to do something to the oil system. A lot of times, over filling a little will fix it.

Not running race tires will help a lot since it will limit how hard the car can brake or corner but its probably a good idea to watch pressure the first few times autocross or driving the car hard.

[horizenjob]

Gauges are nice, but for preventing damage you need an idiot light. You won't notice a gauge during a hard corner, especially if it's only on the worst part of the worst corners you have trouble. The times I've got an indication from a light is usually 2/3 around a turn.

Gauges are great for monitoring trends.

So put in temp and pressure warning switches, run all the wires together to a single light. I used a trailer tail light mounted to the center of my steering wheel. Worked great! Some people probably thought it looked silly, I knew it was very down to business...

[a.moore]

This might be a dumb question, but can you get oil pressure dummy light senders that activate at different pressures?

It seems like all of the bike ones come on at <10psi.

[modernbeat]

There's lots of good pics of my old bike engined autocrosser. It's been sold, but here's the post.

http://www.usa7s.com/forum/uploads/slng ... modernbeat

http://locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3979

The easy answer to the steering-engine interference problem is to go right hand drive.