Tilting engine and tranny

[Jawfish]

I need to measure it. also I want to have a real weight figure.

I'm always surprise at the shear size difference between a 4AGE and a K20, mind you the K20 has 80HP more. Even when modified that difference barely changes, yup that 0.4L of additional displacment and 20 year age diffference accounts of something.

The discussion started when my buddy came back from Lincoln i.e. Solo 2 and we were exploring the different possibilities in D-mod with a Se7en. This discussion has been going on and off for the last 2 years. We were discussing how to build a car without using the K20. We first taught about a Turbo engine. but I've got real concern about the powerband required in solo 2 and a 1.4L engine.

Tilting the engine was part of the discussion that we explored. The reality is that the perfect candidate is the K20 and tilting it by 45-60 degrees would help lower the center of gravity a lot, since it's such a tall engine.

I've always prefer going for a litgher car so I would love to find a 1.8L engine with great potential. The 1.6L 4AGE is still my prefered candidate. I'm not building the car as I'm out of Solo 2, but my buddy isn't and he just got a welder, so....

Cheers,

Fred

[Off Road SHO]

Isn't the engine in the Toyota Sienna or Previa tilted at a crazy angle, almost sideways? I'll have to research that and get back with you guys.

Tom

[Off Road SHO]

Found it. It's the old Previa from 1990 to 1998 raked at a 75 degree angle. My son mentioned it to me and also said the oil pan was on the side of the engine, sort of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Previa

Tom

[firebat45]

It's quite wide when it's leaned over that much, not sure you'd be able to fit in in the Locost. It's a decent little motor though, all the later models came supercharged and it was available in manual RWD in the earlier years. I wonder how it's AWD works? That might actually be feasible for a Locost, being that the engine is back under the passenger seat and the front axle is way ahead of that.

[Jawfish]

That engine was discussed a little on the yahoo list, but the displacement is too big for D-mod and it's a heavy lump.

Leaning an engine would make wider, but it's a non issue as the engine would be set back. In a standard Se7en theres no point, but for a race car with only one seat instead of two it opens up a lot of possibilities.

I find the concept interesting and worth exploring.

Fred

[PhyrraM]

One thing to note about the Previa motor that hasn't been mentioned is that the accesories are "under the hood" (the motor itself is between the front seats), driven by a short driveshaft a foot or so in front of the motor. Whether that is an advantage or disadvantage depends on your imagination and installation.

[Jawfish]

The previa motor is not my choice and would not be considered for the reasons I mentionned above.

Accessories: Water pump, Oil Pump (it's dry sump), alternator, starter motor. Their stock location is irrelevant, let me explain.

We are talking about building a Solo 2-Time Attack race car and tilting the engine to lower the C.G. of the car. For the water pump we would use an electric water pump, our goal is to maximize Rear Wheel HP so this would make sense. The oil Pump for the dry sump would be place at the lowest point possible as we need to make a bracket for it. The alternator, we have two options, either run without one, or do like I did on my car replace the unit with a much smaller one that stock. This again requires us to do a custom bracket, so again will place it as low as possible. The starter motor, well this one is a pain, the more I think about it there's no way going around it, I would need an adapter plate to keep the transmission semi upright in order to have somewhat a pratical shifting pattern. When when doing that my the strater location is right wher the engine would probably be, so again I would need to relocate it.

The engine tranny is a big piece of the puzzle, but to achive the goal of lowering the center of Gravity of the car, it would mean that all components would be required to be mounted as low as possible in every single case. This is extreme and would require a lot of planning.

Cheers,

Fred

[emgr3]

The eccentric or crankshaft of a rotary is in the center of engine. For the same ground clearance, the crank is higher. This causes the transmission to also be higher. This is why rotary conversions of miatas require the firewall cut and the tunnel to be raised. It is less weight but the cg of it is not lower.

Yes but the E-shaft passes through the center of the rotating assembly which means half the weight of the rotors is below it. A piston engine has most of the weight of the rods and pistons above the crankshaft plus the cylinder head/valvetrain. I would still bet on the rotary having a lower cg than a typical piston engine.

[TJF]

Have you consider just using a flat four? If a low cg is the goal a flat engine seems to have an advantage over a titled inline engine. Not sure if you are trying to do this ion a traditional locost type frame or something else. Not sure how much wider a flat four is than a inline engine tilted over as far as you are talking, just wondering if you considered it.

[Jawfish]

Yes the flat four has been considered.

One issue that we have is that both member of the "Team" are not familiar that much with the Subaru 2.0L N.A. ( D-mod rules prevent going with the turbocharges version or it's bigger brothers.) nor are we familiar with the aftermarket support for the 2.0L N.A. motor. The Team is even less familiar with the VW or Porsche offerings

This would be in a Lotus-Caterham based chassis design as the chassis is a little narrower and would help achive a narrower track at the rear than a book chassis, the wheelbse could be in the Low 80's and still be D-mod Legal. Plus being smaller it helps with have a smaller lighter car to start with, and have more ballast to play with for moving the weight distribution.

As the engine is set back, and offset, there are more room for a traditional engine, but not not sure for a flat four.

I'm heading into the garage. I'll take some pics and dimension of a 20V 4AGE with the dry sump pan in uprigth positions, at 45 degrees and at 75 degrees.

Cheers,

Fred

[Jawfish]

I don't have my measurements,

But here a couple of frontal pitcures one in the upright position and the other at 45degres.


.

In the end unless you get to like something 70-75 degrees I don't think it's worth the effort, and my 2 buddies agree also. If your going to make an adapter plate might as well make one for a Honda K20A or a toyota 2ZZ-GE. Plus there more rewarding area to work on the car.

Cheers,

Fred