Locost refinement?! (also M3 love song)

[Blackbird]

Yep, it may just be an oxymoron.
BUT, I went for a drive today in a few of the canyon roads leading to Malibu (CA) in my M3.
Wife and baby in the car so no real hard driving, just somewhat more spirited than your average drive to a friend's house.

Piuma road (especially), for those who may know the area, looks like a tarmac rally stage basically.
A million turns and elevation changes, the road isn't exactly smooth and hardly any guardrails along the canyon edge.
Perfect.

After gliding the M3 from turn to turn for about 45 mins of constant shifting between 2nd and 3rd gear we jumped on the freeway and settled into cruising down and that's when it the greatness of the M3 really dawned on me.

There are cars out there that would run the canyon roads faster.
There are cars out there that will cruise down the highway in excellent comfort.
The M3 isn't the fastest nor the most comfortable, but it does such an amazing job at both that it's just stunning to me.
It will rip through the canyon at higher speeds than I'll ever take it to with anyone in the car, flying from corner to corner with no drama, slows down without any hint of instability and accelerates wonderfully when kept in the powerband.
A second later, you can lock the cruise control on 80 MPH, raise the windows and close the sunroof and it suddenly become a quiet mileage swallowing comfortable cruiser.

And the curious question of the day is - do you think that it is possible to build a comfortable yet high performing locost that you can carve through corners with but take a relaxed long-ish (meaning 3-4 hours, not cross country) drive in relative comfort?

Moti

[chetcpo]

No I don't. My 3 hour drives to Ky and back for the LLL were fairly miserable. Granted my car needs some refinement, but even if I could quiet down the exhaust (which I will with a turbo) and cool down the footwell (which I will by enclosing my pedal box, and even if I installed more comfy seats the wind fatigue is inescapable. The only thing it compares to is riding a motorcycle on the highway. The wind constantly buffetting you is hard to tolerate for too long. I wore my helmet on the way home and although I got a lot of strange looks it was much more comfortable. My brother in law said earplugs help tremendously too. So far I've yet to find a solution to the "scalp tingle" that lasts for hours after a ride from the wind trying to pull your hair out.

[enderw88]

I agree with Chet. The single most important factor that makes the M3 a good highway car is MASS. Getting the sprung to unsprung weight ratio up to where you can make compliance less than kidney punishing takes mass. Reducing weather exposure and noise takes mass. Witness the overwhelming efforts put into reduce NVH (Noise Vibration and Harshness) by every passenger car manufacturer over the last twenty-thirty years that is the principle reason that even tiny little Honda Fits weighs 2500 pounds as opposed to my old 1977 Honda Civic CVCC which weighed 1700.

I could add a hundred pounds of Dynamat to my SuperStalker, and add a few hundred pounds of body work to enclose it, then I would notice my knee bangs into the frame, there is no A/C, and the stereo isn't there. Correcting all of those take even more size and mass. I would end up with something like a very heavy version of the Daytona Coupe, and certainly spend a lot of money in the process...

[dhempy]

And the curious question of the day is - do you think that it is possible to build a comfortable yet high performing locost that you can carve through corners with but take a relaxed long-ish (meaning 3-4 hours, not cross country) drive in relative comfort?

Moti

I can't answer from experience, but I'm skeptical. You'd have to rebalance all the compromises of the Seven, and I don't think you'd end up with a Seven.

From my perspective, pretty much all the compromises in the Seven are in the interest of low weight. Low weight = better acceleration in all four directions. In the pursuit of low weight, we give up power, comfort, size, and even aerodynamics.

I think you'd need to add a lot of those diminished components back in to achieve what you're looking for, Moti. Not that you couldn't do it, (I couldn't, but I won't assume the same of you!) but I think you'd have a hard time calling it a Seven in the end.

As for comfort, it's probably better than most (not all!) motorcycles, particularly if you've got something more than 1/2" of foam rubber under your butt. But perhaps not by much. So if you're not up to 3 hours on a bike, you might think about towing your seven behind an Avalanche or something.


But like I said...I'm not on the road yet. I might recant all this after my first oil change!

-dave

[Miatav8,MstrASE,A&P,F]

I also don't think a traditional style could be as quiet. The buffeting of the flat glass along with the lip around the edge, plus every rough area on the car generates wind noise. An M3 convertible would not be as quiet either. The exhaust could route all the way to the rear of the car, either in behind the driver and down the middle or outboard of the wheel, leaving enough room to pull the wheel off when jacked. Many of these cars seem to use exhaust tube sizes normally used for everyday cars with a full length system. A short system should have a small as stock diameter, with a cat and a muffler.

Otherwise, it could be as comfy. Aftermarket cruise control works great and is tuneable for better sensitivity. It costs about $100. The BMW seats(possibly with seat warmers) could be used, along with a small Vintage Air heat and ac unit in the dash. The rubber engine, transmission, diff mounts could be retained. Some of the insulation used in the donor could be carried over as well. All of these things may add a couple hundred pounds combined, and be worth every ounce.

[horizenjob]

Sounds like the wind buffeting is one of the biggest issues. The guys on the UK forums discuss that. Some of them fit clear little "wings" on the side of their windshields that angle backwards a bit and seem to help. I don't think the ride should be super harsh. IRS and in board brakes on the rear would help. Light rims and using modest size tires to keep unsprung weight down would help.

[chetcpo]

Sounds like the wind buffeting is one of the biggest issues. The guys on the UK forums discuss that. Some of them fit clear little "wings" on the side of their windshields that angle backwards a bit and seem to help. I don't think the ride should be super harsh. IRS and in board brakes on the rear would help. Light rims and using modest size tires to keep unsprung weight down would help.

Ride harshness isn't at all bad on average to good pavement. Get on anything less and it would be quite a stretch to call my car's ride comforable.

[rongaudier]

I'll bet you could tow the locost with the M3.

[SkinnyG]

I've driven my Locost to Vancouver and back twice (8 or 12 hours round trip depending on which highway I take). It's a solid axle 7, with spring rates chosen for low to mid 2cps frequencies. It's firm. I have close to 10,000km's on the clock since plates.

On the highway, it's the wind that kills you. I always wear ear plugs and it's still not enough. If I'm going over 70mph I prefer to use ear plugs AND a hat with ear flaps to further block the wind. Wind becomes exponentially unpleasant. The Bikini top helps considerably, as does having four 10" slicks strapped to the roll bar on the back. I have wind wings to try, but haven't installed them yet.

Side doors would make a considerable difference - the USA7's guys who came through Kelowna on their Pacific Northwest Tour mostly all had side doors. Few had tops up. One had no windshield.

There are times that I really look forward to driving it, and times when the prospect of getting in, getting strapped down, and dealing with the raw-ness of it is uninviting. I'm looking forward to a winter of upgrading and driving my pickup to get me in the mood for it again in the spring.

It ain't no M3, but I'd rather have this than an M3. I'd rather have the M3 than my wife's Sunfire....

G

[miles50]

Before doing some refining on my funky Dutton I notice the buffeting at high speeds was really irritating. I could not keep a hat on to keep it from defoliating my head. I tried wind wings from a MGTD very little help. I have side curtains for the car but always thought it looked funny driving around with them on without the top. On other Brit cars with side curtains they flop around and pull away from the windscreen.. I once drove an MGTC from Montreal to Toronto with the windscreen down and dont remember as much irritation, except I could not crack a smile the next day from sun and wind burn on my face. My Dutton has leaf springs on the rear and coil overs rated at 220 lbs at a small angle. The ride is actually comfortable albeit cramped. I had my interior guy put more padding in the seats with a little more lumbar support. Memory foam is great for the long distance you can use a small layer above the regular seat foam. The other irritant was the exhaust note which originally exited half way down the passengers side. I put an extra silencer off a Toyota Atlantic car and turned the outlet outward. A little better but still throaty. Some people like wearing those leather helmets from the fiftys F1 at least you can look like Sterling Moss.

[MustangSix]

My hat is off to anyone with the strength and endurance to conquer a high-speed cross country drive in a Locost. The sheer noise and buffeting tend to drive me nuts after an hour on the interstate. But on the twisty side roads, it's a joy to drive.

[fourthmeal]

Guys this is identical to what motorcyclists deal with every day. I rode for a few years and traveled thousands of miles at times, and it isn't for everybody.

I had a naked streetbike first, and anything over 80 was arduous. Still, I did it all the time and traveled hundreds of miles at a time. It works if you duck waaay down and stay out of the airstream.

I also had an '06 VFR, which is much more acclimated to traveling long distances at elevated speeds. In fact, it was made for it. The first of my secrets to success? I used were high quality noise-killing earphones (not earplugs...music is necessary on long drives to avoid insanity.) I mostly had Shure earphones, one that fit so precisely in my ear that the decibel attenuation was probably -30 to -36 dB or better. Pair that with some music playing, and the world seems less brutal on a bike. It is important to note that things like ambulances and police have sirens that aren't blocked by earphones like Shures, which is an important safety point. My second secret was to have a helmet that fit perfectly, and one that was as light as humanly possible. Heavy helmets that buffet the head can wear you out, while properly made (somewhat expensive) helmets with lightweight materials are more natural to your neck muscles, reducing fatigue greatly. Also good helmets tend to have their own attenuation to wind noise through proper design, ..a plus. The third secret is to have a windscreen that is tall enough to let the wind flow over you, but designed right to reduce buffeting. You're better off with a lower, less buffeting windshield then a higher, more buffeting one. Wind is brutal, as you know. This may mean that the locost needs a better windshield then a piece of flat glass. There has to be alternatives out there, and we should work on that. The fourth secret is that reducing buffeting may be done from behind as much as from in front. Experimentation with various screens behind you might show a significant change in how the wind behaves. This may solve the problem.

This will be a daily driver for me, but then again I'm used to a motorcycle being my only vehicle, so I'm prepared for the "rawness."