US Pinto 2.0l - What 5spd to use?

[dodgedartgt]

Just made a deal with a coworker for a warmed up Pinto 2.0 from his dad's old race car. It comes with the stock Pinto 4 spd. What are my options for a 5spd conversion?
Thnx, Mike Bynum

[SportsCarDesigner]

Don't take my word for it, but I think you're looking for a Borg Warner T-5 from a 1983-1993 Inline-4 Ford Mustang or 1983-1988 Ford Thunderbird Turbo Coupe (Inline-4 turbo - 240 ft-lbs torque). I'm ASSUMING the 2.0 Pinto crank and bellhousing bolt pattern is the same as the 2.3 "Pinto" engine.

The following implies the '88 T-bird T-5 is stronger if you're going for big power mods: "1988, the final year for the Turbo Coupe, saw only a minor change. The 5-speed manual transmission now allowed the full 15 psi of boost in all forward gears (as opposed to excluding the first two gears)."

A lot of same era (and later) V6 and V8 Mustangs used the T-5 of course, but I don't know 'bout Ford bellhousing pattern, splines, etc. sameness or not betwixt I-4/V6/V8.

Found this:
Re: What bellhousing for 2.3/T5 pinto conversion?
I don't understand all the confusion people have... I have taken a 86 t bird and used the bellhousing, t-5, clutch and flywheel, it all worked. I just used a mustang II clutch cable because I didn't want to go hydraulic. That worked fine in a sand/ mud buggy, no slippage or binding with very heavy use.

Ask here:
http://www.fordpinto.com/index.php/topic,13331.msg95197.html?PHPSESSID=1cf2be9279c004ea544f82dc102ac19f#msg95197
.

[BBlue]

You have three options:

Get a Type 9 from the UK. These were used in the Sierra, which had the "Pinto" engine. It will bolt up, no issues.

Use an M5R1 that is for the 3.0 engine as used in the Ranger. Bell housing patterns are the same, as are the clutch parts. I'm not sure about the starter. It is entirely possible the 3.0 starter will work.

Use either a T5 for the Mustang 2.3 or M5R1 from the Ranger 2.3. The two share the same bolt pattern, which is very close to that used in the "Pinto". There are two differences. First, the locating dowels are a different diameter. You should make, or have made, a pair of stepped dowels, which solve that issue. The other problem is the location of the two upper bell housing bolts. The ones for the 2.3 engine are located about 1 1/2" higher than those for the "Pinto". Most guys that do the swap use the four bolts that align and call it good. It would not be a big deal to have a lump of aluminum welded onto the bell housing and redirill to match the "Pinto" bolt location. The holes are not tapped. Clutch issues can be solved by using a "Pinto" pressure plate. The rest can be 2.3. The 2.3 starter will fit, no problem. A 2.3 flywheel will work, but must be redrilled for the "Pinto". crankshaft bolt pattern. If you happen to have a Capri flywheel, you got problems. Throw it away and use one of the other options.

On proof read, it occurred to me you can also use the Type 9 from one of the Merkurs. But there is no reason to. They have the same installation issues as the other 2.3 trannys, have usually been beat to hell, which is why they are available, and the ratios are not particularly good.

Please note I have put Pinto inside of quotation marks in order to make it clear I am not including the 2.0 used in the Ranger. It has nothing in common with the "Pinto" engine, other than displacement. It is a 2.3 block.

Bill

[bremms]

Nothing wrong with a four speed. Use a 3.31:1 diff. First is too low on most of these cars with a 3.7 or higher
diff My car has a Volvo 3.31 diff and a five speed. Fifth is pretty tall still useful on the highway.
but four gears would suffice. That Pinto tranny is small and light. Fourth gear gives 125 mph
at 6000 rpm or about 115mph at the power peak. That about all 140-150 hp will push one of these.

[skibikejohn]

You could get a t9 from a Mercur XR4Ti, if you can find one in a wreckers. Cheaper than getting one from the UK but may be some work to find.

[BBlue]

You could get a t9 from a Mercur XR4Ti, if you can find one in a wreckers. Cheaper than getting one from the UK but may be some work to find.

Why would he want to get one of these Type 9's? It won't fit any better than a Mustang 2.3 T5.

Bill

[KB58]

...Fourth gear gives 125 mph
at 6000 rpm or about 115mph at the power peak. That about all 140-150 hp will push one of these.

If that. My mid-engine Mini, with 190 hp at the wheels, topped out at about 130 mph. If the drag coeffient of a Locost is at all close (and it's probably worse) then 125 mph needs about 175 hp at the crank.

My brother's Super Stalker has around 220-240 hp at the crank, and he's up around 140mph+.

[RossD]

The Type 9 should bolt right up to the bellhousing. Or you can beef up your 4 speed from parts from Quafe: http://www.taylor-race.com/framedmap.cfm?drawing=rocketmap&category=Transmissions&subcategory1=Quaife&subcategory2=Quaife%20Parts&subcategory3=Quaife%20Rocket Probably not locost though...

[BBlue]

The Type 9 should bolt right up to the bellhousing. Or you can beef up your 4 speed from parts from Quafe: http://www.taylor-race.com/framedmap.cfm?drawing=rocketmap&category=Transmissions&subcategory1=Quaife&subcategory2=Quaife%20Parts&subcategory3=Quaife%20Rocket Probably not locost though...

Isn't the 2.3 Type 9 input shaft 1/2" longer than the Pinto input shaft? That is what CortinaGT posted on the Zetec 5 speed thread.

How are you doing in your quest for a Contour?

Bill

[dodgedartgt]

Thnx for the responses guys.

I guess the first thing I don't know for sure... I'm assumiong that the 2.0l Pinto engine and the 2.3l (Lima?) do not share the same bellhousing bolt pattern???

And four of six bolt holes match, except on the Lima, the top two are higher on the block ???

But some of the Lima engines have dual patterns, two sets of upper holes, low (Pinto) and higher up?

I'll grant that to use this engine, the easiest thing is to use the Pinto 4spd, but I was hoping there would be a common, readily available and CHEAP 5 spd alternative. Lets face it, most, if not all of us, have gotten VERY used to OD trannies. Steep gears to get off the line and quieter, lower revs at cruise.

Right now, the odds are this engine is gonna end up in front of an MGB 3.91 axle... ouch! ...unless I can find as good set (or at least a pair) of 4 x 4-1/2" Triumph wire wheel hub adapters (not Spitfire or GT6).

BBlue, thnx for the link. You're right, there ain't nothing cheap about the Quaife parts. What that list does do is show a myraid of different gear ratios, unless they are only aftermarket ratios. I'll have to check it out when I get my tranny home. If I do go with a 2.3/T5 combo, then you are saying I need tranny, bell, flywheel and starter plus my pressure plate and clutch disc and should be golden? Oh yeah, dowel pins. Are the 2.3's pieces larger or smaller diameter than the 2.0's?

Are there any other ideas?

One thing I'm glad of, I know the 2.0 is still well supported in the circle track community.

Thnx, Mike

[BBlue]

I guess the first thing I don't know for sure... I'm assumiong that the 2.0l Pinto engine and the 2.3l (Lima?) do not share the same bellhousing bolt pattern??? Correct

And four of six bolt holes match, except on the Lima, the top two are higher on the block ???Correct

But some of the Lima engines have dual patterns, two sets of upper holes, low (Pinto) and higher up? Correct, this was mostly in the early Pinto 2.3's

I'll grant that to use this engine, the easiest thing is to use the Pinto 4spd, but I was hoping there would be a common, readily available and CHEAP 5 spd alternative. Lets face it, most, if not all of us, have gotten VERY used to OD trannies. Steep gears to get off the line and quieter, lower revs at cruise. Probably the cheapest and easiest to source choice that bolt up would be the M5R1 for the Ranger 3.0. 3.73 low gear, 5th is .79. The ratios in this tranny are better than the Mustang T5's. But the tranny is big and heavy, about 80 pounds. Also would probably need to fabricate a remote shifter. The stock shifter is pretty far forward. The Mustang 2.3 T5 would be equally easy if you are not concerned about the upper holes

Right now, the odds are this engine is gonna end up in front of an MGB 3.91 axle... ouch! ...unless I can find as good set (or at least a pair) of 4 x 4-1/2" Triumph wire wheel hub adapters (not Spitfire or GT6).

BBlue, thnx for the link. You're right, there ain't nothing cheap about the Quaife parts. What that list does do is show a myraid of different gear ratios, unless they are only aftermarket ratios. I'll have to check it out when I get my tranny home. If I do go with a 2.3/T5 combo, then you are saying I need tranny, bell, flywheel and starter plus my pressure plate and clutch disc and should be golden? Oh yeah, dowel pins. Are the 2.3's pieces larger or smaller diameter than the 2.0's? Uhh, I didn't post the link. You can keep your flywheel if you keep your pressure plate, unless it happens to be a Capri flywheel. I doubt if it is, most of them have been tossed. Clutch plates and starters are interchangeable. I don't remember which engine takes the larger pin. Really doesn't matter, it's just a matter of inserting the large end of the stepped pin in the large hole. Well, I take that back. The pin should be made so it is a light press fit into the tranny. If your choice requires the stepped pins, let me know and I'll machine a couple for you

Are there any other ideas? Put a tranny from a 3.0 SHO, Tempo or Escort in it and go with fwd! They all use the Pinto bolt pattern.

One thing I'm glad of, I know the 2.0 is still well supported in the circle track community.

Thnx, Mike

[dodgedartgt]

Ross, Sorry, but I accidentally attributed your Quiafe link to BBlue... Sorry

BBlue, what are the Mustang 4cyl T5 ratios? Also, the FWD tranny idea may have some merit in the future for a middy. It could all be done with no electronic controls other than the engine's ignition.

Mike

[RossD]

Thats fine, I have one of the 4 speeds from a 2.0 pinto, but have yet to connect anything to it. So most of what I say is just repeating what I found on the internet. Sometimes I forget myself.

[BBlue]

Mike, the 2.3 T5 ratios are 3.97, 2.34, 1.46, 1.0 and .79. Not terrible, but I think you will find the 3.97 a bit much in a light car. I had a 2.0 with a 3.55 rear in a 2500 pound car. With the M5 tranny, 3.72 1st was plenty low. Second gear (2.20) starts were no problem. Third gear (1.50) starts, I had to be careful. A lot depends on the rear you decide on, but in a 1500 pound car, you probably will find 1st in almost any transmission to be optional. Mostly a parking or trailering gear.

While it is tempting to say you will go with a 3.0 sort of rear with the 5 speed, don't. With the 3.55 and 23 inch tires, 70 mph in 5th worked out to be about 2800 rpm. The problem: the 2.0 was happiest in the 3,000 and up range, so I was cruising on the wrong side of my torque curve. In short, I think that with some planning, you will find the 4 speed will work out very nicely. Just for fun, do some calculations, using the ratios in your 4 speed. Determine the rear ratio that will give you 5-7 mph/1000 rpm in first gear. That is a good, usable target for most driving conditions. Then see what your top gear rpms look like. Won't cost a thing and you'll find the results to be enlightening.

Bill

[dodgedartgt]

Thnx BB,

You answered two of my questions before I could even ask them, being:
Name of tranny - M5
Ratios - 3.72 / 2.20 / 1.50 / 1.00
Unfortunately, with the MG 3.91 axle I have, 1st will be truly unuseable with an overall ratio of 14.5:1 and 2nd is too high with only 8.6:1. I really want something around 11 or 12:1 overall 1st gear ratio. For that, I really right at a 3.00 1st gear. The best bet I know of in a common trans is a Camaro V8 T5 with a 2.95 first. From the chart linked below, There are some Mustang V8 units with 3.35 1st and some "Motorsport" & "Aftermarket" with the same 2.95 1st.

I wonder if I can put the Camaro guts into the Mustange case?

Here is the link I mentioned above, http://www.allfordmustangs.com/Detailed/349.shtml which gives a lot of good T5 info.

Mike Bynum